Double Bass Jazz bassists before pickups and amps.

[c_mf]

So, I've searched the forum and elsewhere on the internet quite a bit, but I'm having a hard time finding any information about this. I'm hoping one of you fine folks here might have some insight on the matter, as it's been bugging me for some time.

My basic question is, how did bassists not go absolutely insane from trying to perform in loud environments with loud drummers prior to the widespread adoption of pickups and amps? I have recently done a couple of rehearsals without an amp (with a drummer, plus guitar, piano, and two to three vocalists all playing as quietly as they reasonably can), and while I can certainly feel what I'm playing, I certainly can't clearly hear the pitch coming out of the instrument from where I stand. This is fine if you're just laying it down in the money zone, but what about if I wanted to walk up the neck/take a solo/double the melody, etc.? I think of all of those great jazz recordings from the 50s and 60s, especially those with loud/energetic drummers, and I wonder how it's possible that the bassists' intonation wasn't all over the place because there's no way in hell they could hear themselves. I realize that most played gut with high action, and I have tried that as well. I found that any advantages gained in volume were somewhat cancelled out when it comes to pitch definition as compared to steel strings. What am I missing? How did more of them not give up and switch to electric bass completely out of frustration?

 

[turf3]

I think you're underestimating how fast guys in loud situations (rock and roll and loud dance bands) changed over to the Fender bass when it came out. Also how fast bassists adopted pickups and amplification for the DB.

However, you should also consider that in the pre-Fender days, general volume levels were, on average, MUCH lower.

 

[Bruce Calin]

As someone who played for several years professionally before amps became practical it was somewhat more involved than what you may think. The quality of amps and pickups took a while to improve to the point where they were really usable. Players took care to use good technique and were used to listening to the bass in such a way that they could hear what they were playing. I recall early on when using an amp that it was harder to hear what I was playing than it had been unamped because I had developed that skill and the amp changed the perspective. The fact that music is performed and listened to at such higher volume levels now is definitely another factor. Younger players I work with seem to require levels that are on the borderline of uncomfortable to me in some cases. I also think the issue is more from a listeners' perspective than the players'. People want the bass and pretty much everything else louder now with more low frequency impact in pretty much all situations IMO.

 

[turf3]

... People want the bass and pretty much everything else louder now with more low frequency impact in pretty much all situations IMO.

That's clearly from the influence of rock and roll.

I remember way back when I heard my first rock band in person. I'd heard the radio, but one day some kids at school set up on the quad and played. (We had 12 years at our school; I would have been in third grade, these guys were probably seniors and juniors.) Holy cow! The physical sensations of that amplified electric bass! I knew right then, I wanted some of that.

Now, 70 years after the Fender bass came out, and 59 years after Beatlemania, everyone's gotten used to a much heavier rumble and sensation from bass in all kinds of music.

 

[turf3]

As someone who played for several years professionally before amps became practical it was somewhat more involved than what you may think. The quality of amps and pickups took a while to improve to the point where they were really usable. Players took care to use good technique and were used to listening to the bass in such a way that they could hear what they were playing. I recall early on when using an amp that it was harder to hear what I was playing than it had been unamped because I had developed that skill and the amp changed the perspective. The fact that music is performed and listened to at such higher volume levels now is definitely another factor. Younger players I work with seem to require levels that are on the borderline of uncomfortable to me in some cases. I also think the issue is more from a listeners' perspective than the players'. People want the bass and pretty much everything else louder now with more low frequency impact in pretty much all situations IMO.

I assume you're talking about "before double bass amps with pickups" became viable, not that you were playing professionally for several years before the Precision Bass was introduced in '51?

 

[Bruce Calin]

I assume you're talking about "before double bass amps with pickups" became viable, not that you were playing professionally for several years before the Precision Bass was introduced in '51?

I started playing professionally in the mid 60s. There was a lot of music being played and listened to at that time that wasn't rock-and-roll oriented at all. Fender basses in my experience weren't used by professional players in most music until the late 60s when that style became more popular among younger people. Even then, talking about jazz, it wasn't until fusion came along that it was used except in rare cases at all. I played very little electric bass until I got involved in studio work in the late 60s when that became the sound for commercial music. Even then, the DB was used in a lot more music of the time than people might realize now.

 

[MikeDavis]

If you are playing with sensitive musicians who are listening, I do not find an amp necessary nor do I miss it. If I’m playing with folks who aren’t listening, no amount of amplification improves the experience.

 

[KUNGfuSHERIFF]

I used to own an old German flatback that was last set up in Philly during the big band years.

It had a tall bridge with no adjusters and gut strings you could fit your whole hand under.

Not the most agile bass to play, but unamplified and outdoors you could hear me a football field away. Some of the Texas guys strung their basses ADGC for better projection.

 

[Bruce Calin]

I used to own an old German flatback that was last set up in Philly during the big band years.

It had a tall bridge with no adjusters and gut strings you could fit your whole hand under.

Not the most agile bass to play, but unamplified and outdoors you could hear me a football field away. Some of the Texas guys strung their basses ADGC for better projection.

I came across a bass that was being donated to a school a few years ago and was asked to play it as part of a program. It had belonged to a guy who had played in the big band days and still had the old high action, gut strings and all. It was not the easiest bass I ever played and needed some TLC, but it did have serious mojo and really put out some sound.

 

[oren]

When I lived in Chicago I used to sub regularly in a big band, and I was told that their regular bassist didn’t use an amp and everyone could hear him. I’m not ashamed to say I used my amp.

 

[fdeck]

Some things I've noticed in recordings and transcriptions of old big-band material. One is that they often had the entire rhythm section thumping along, to reinforce the bass. Another is that the bassist often played in the higher registers. Ellington tried having two bassists. The problem was that nobody could keep up with Blanton.

I played in a tribute to Stan Kenton's mellophonium band -- 24 players -- using Kenton's charts. When he introduced the mellophoniums, he shifted the rest of the band downward, for instance with 2 bari sax, 1 bass sax, 2 bass trombones, tuba, etc. Kenton apparently hated PA systems.

The bands started out smaller and quieter. The "full" big-band didn't happen right away. Some of the instruments were quieter: Clarinets and cornets gradually gave way to saxophones and trumpets. Bass may have gotten louder in recordings as the recording technology evolved.

And the bassists wrecked their hands. Much as I love playing acoustically, it's too dangerous except under rare circumstances.

 

[SAlcott]

 

[CaseyVancouver]

I played with a few drummers long ago that were not as loud as the hard hitters today.
The biggest difference to me is they used animal skin heads. Some of the cymbals were quieter than todays cymbals. These players liked to work with the music, not show off their chops and have everybody running for aspirin.

An expert vintage drummer I played with from Seattle, Stephen Joseph rip, had a cymbal that originally belonged to Baby Dodds. That cymbal was quiet and delicate, it could be bent. Stephen loved playing with an acoustic upright bass, and often said so.

Today if there is a drummer on the gig, I wear an ear plug in my ear next to him, and bring an amp.
No drummer, no ear plugs and hopefully no amp required.

 

[Blues Daddy]

microphones on the bass . . . . . eventually?

 

[lurk]

People are always asking me to turn up. I too am old enough to have started out amp-less. I think we long ago reached a point where the tail is wagging the dog. As more and more listeners get more and more of what they listen to from recordings as compared to live music, and those recordings have more and clearer bass as micing and mixing have evolved, people want to hear that in live music situations. The guys who became "stars" playing gut strings acoustically pretty much all embraced steel strings and amplification fairly quickly. In the old pre-amp days there would sometimes be some sort of amplification for the bass - a strategically placed mic. I personally like to play with as little amplification as possible. I want the other players to have to listen for and to me. It's actually an ego thing and, if you're playing with the right people, a way to establish your bailiwick in the sound. Unfortunately if you are playing in a situation with "sound guys" that type of thing goes completely out the window.

 

[Bruce Calin]

Great discussion- brings back a lot of memories. One thing I would emphasize is that IMO most of us who came through that era wanted to continue playing the DB and not give it up totally for the EB. If amplification became necessary we would do it if it meant we could keep playing our instrument of choice. I had a club band during some of my time where I played EB exclusively because the music called for it and it paid the bills but still looked for any chance to play the DB. The fact that I had played the DB first gave me certain advantages over many strictly EB players, but I always preferred playing the DB if I had a choice. The advantages of the EB, volume, convenience, etc. were nice but the DB was the means of musical expression that I always preferred. Playing unamped now is rare for me, but still enjoyable in the right circumstance with the right people.

 

[Bruce Calin]

Some things I've noticed in recordings and transcriptions of old big-band material. One is that they often had the entire rhythm section thumping along, to reinforce the bass. Another is that the bassist often played in the higher registers. Ellington tried having two bassists. The problem was that nobody could keep up with Blanton.

I played in a tribute to Stan Kenton's mellophonium band -- 24 players -- using Kenton's charts. When he introduced the mellophoniums, he shifted the rest of the band downward, for instance with 2 bari sax, 1 bass sax, 2 bass trombones, tuba, etc. Kenton apparently hated PA systems.

The bands started out smaller and quieter. The "full" big-band didn't happen right away. Some of the instruments were quieter: Clarinets and cornets gradually gave way to saxophones and trumpets. Bass may have gotten louder in recordings as the recording technology evolved.

And the bassists wrecked their hands. Much as I love playing acoustically, it's too dangerous except under rare circumstances.

Somewhat off topic, I ran into a guy years ago who had played bass for a while in that Kenton band. He described it as "trying to pull a train".

 

[c_mf]

Great video! He's really cooking on that first tune. Any ideas what mic would have been used stuffed in the bridge like that?

Thanks for all the input, everyone!

 

[Ed Fuqua]

There are any number of bassists playing now that don't use a pick up and amplifier. There are any number of clubs around the country that are actual listening rooms for this music in which bassists play without amplification, a number more larger venues where the instrument is mic'ed like the acoustic instrument it is. Even here in southeast Bumshag there are gigs we can do without amplification. To wit...

 

[Stewie]

I love listening to and playing old school blues. The bass was quiet, you kinda have to listen. Whenever I stay down where I feel I belong, I get asked to kick it up a notch or two. My favorite drummer in the whole world is unable to play with brushes due to physical disabilities, playing loudly au naturel hurts