Jazz-Impaired: Playing Arpeggios Over Frequent Chord Changes?

[OldSchoolFlats]

Aging play-for-fun rock/country bass player here.

Most of my playing has been on simple I-IV-V non-syncopated songs, or the harmonic equivalent thereof.

I'm currently trying to learn - really learn - the fretboard, in order to play more complex songs, and read standard notation.

My problem: I am currently working on arpeggios with Jazz backing-tracks, where there are chord-changes on every measure. I know the arpeggio patterns, and basic music theory, but being used to simple songs, I always want to play the root in unfamiliar territory. When playing Jazz (like) tunes, any basic guidelines for gracefully connecting the arpeggios in a more "jazz-like" way, without playing the root all the time?

For now, I want to focus on arpeggios (with a bit of chromatics and articulation), learning the fretboard, and frequent chord-changes. I know scales/modes sound better, and I know the modes (alas, from a rock/country perspective), but for now, I want to stick with chord-tones.

Be gentle - this is just a hobby for me, but I do want to take my playing to the next level...

 

[bholder]

Not sure I follow, but the root doesn't have to be the start of the arpeggio. So across the chord change, you might choose the first note of the next chord / measure to be the nearest arpeggio tone to the last one you played for the previous chord (rather than the root). "Voice leading", I think it's called, in classical theory. Not sure that helps?

 

[LeFunk Machine]

Well, How many beats per measure is it on the Jazz backing-tracks you're playing. Do you have a link to the backing track?

The first thing would be to know what music key the song is in. After that, you'd want to know the progression of the song. Is it I-IV-V or I-V-IV or I-vi-ii-V? If you figure that out, then you can proceed to figure out the how many beat per measure the song is.

Lets say it's 4 beats per measure in all the chord changes in the backing track and the key is C and the progression is I-IV-V ---> C - F - G. We start with C, which has 4 beats, since its 4 beats per measure in all of the measure of this song. When the song starts, I'll start by playing C (the root-first beat), E (the third of C chord - second beat), G (the fifth of C chord - third beat), C/E - (since this is the last beat before the chord changes to F in the progression of I-IV-V, I have the choice to play C which is above F, and or E which is next to F) - you can also use scale notes if you want rather than chord tones.

It's all about note choice and what you think fits the harmony of the song. If you have relative or perfect pitch, then you won't have trouble choosing the right melodic notes.

 

[LeFunk Machine]

This videos are great.

 

[Sub-hoo-fer]

Was it Charlie Mingus who said something like any note would do?

check out this thread, especially the Adam Neely video.
Conflicting advice on walking bass

 

[LeFunk Machine]

Was it Charlie Mingus who said something like any note would do?

check out this thread, especially the Adam Neely video.
Conflicting advice on walking bass

Yes, and Victor Wooten goes as far as to say there are no wrong notes as long as you play them right.

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

Not sure I follow, but the root doesn't have to be the start of the arpeggio. So across the chord change, you might choose the first note of the next chord / measure to be the nearest arpeggio tone to the last one you played for the previous chord (rather than the root). "Voice leading", I think it's called, in classical theory. Not sure that helps?

I think this is the heart of the problem. My focus is REALLY learning the fretboard, so at present, I only have time to "see" the root notes. I am not fast enough yet to "see" the chord patterns next to each other in time to pick a 3rd, 5th, 7th, or passing chromatic tone. Hopefully I will get faster.

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

Well, How many beats per measure is it on the Jazz backing-tracks you're playing. Do you have a link to the backing track?

The first thing would be to know what music key the song is in. After that, you'd want to know the progression of the song. Is it I-IV-V or I-V-IV or I-vi-ii-V? If you figure that out, then you can proceed to figure out the how many beat per measure the song is.

Lets say it's 4 beats per measure in all the chord changes in the backing track and the key is C and the progression is I-IV-V ---> C - F - G. We start with C, which has 4 beats, since its 4 beats per measure in all of the measure of this song. When the song starts, I'll start by playing C (the root-first beat), E (the third of C chord - second beat), G (the fifth of C chord - third beat), C/E - (since this is the last beat before the chord changes to F in the progression of I-IV-V, I have the choice to play C which is above F, and or E which is next to F) - you can also use scale notes if you want rather than chord tones.

It's all about note choice and what you think fits the harmony of the song. If you have relative or perfect pitch, then you won't have trouble choosing the right melodic notes.

It's generally 4/4, but the chord sequences are much more than I-IV-V.

I am using "Band-in-a-Box", since it A) provides a chord chart and B) provides a lot of harmonic and rhythmic variety.

My ear-training is very weak. Working on that too, but I have a long way to go.

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

This videos are great.

Great: on my Saturday list!

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

Was it Charlie Mingus who said something like any note would do?

check out this thread, especially the Adam Neely video.
Conflicting advice on walking bass

Yep, more homework...
...gotta move beyond 3-chord songs and hammering-out 16th notes.

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

Yes, and Victor Wooten goes as far as to say there are no wrong notes as long as you play them right.

I dunno...
...Marcus Miller and Kinga Glyck style jazz makes sense to me, but I don't "get" Wooten (harmonically). His groove, though, is impeccable.

 

[jmattbassplaya]

I think this is the heart of the problem. My focus is REALLY learning the fretboard, so at present, I only have time to "see" the root notes. I am not fast enough yet to "see" the chord patterns next to each other in time to pick a 3rd, 5th, 7th, or passing chromatic tone. Hopefully I will get faster.

You’ll get faster. It might be slightly elementary sounding but run through these chord progressions and aim to do nothing more complex than root-third-fifth-seventh for each chord. Nail doing that pattern until it gets boring. Then try either mixing up the progression while keeping the same note pattern or keep the same progression while mixing up the note pattern. Take your time with it because eventually it’ll begin to stick. Once you’re comfortable with your arpeggios then you can begin adding in the second, fourth, and blue note (b5) to your note patterns. At this point, you’ll want to slow down and really pay attention to the musicality of your note choices and figure out if they both outline the current chord and invoke the overall progression. If it sounds good - it is good. If it sounds bad then hey - it’s Jazz baby.

 

[FatStringer52]

If you really want to learn the fingerboard, this is probably one of the best methods . . .



If you give these exercises their due diligence you will start seeing the arpeggios from any chord tone -- the root, the 3rd, the 5th -- and will be able to navigate thru chord changes with much more ease.

It's not easy and it won't happen overnight. But this should get you to where you know the fingerboard intimately!

Best of luck . . .

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

You’ll get faster. It might be slightly elementary sounding but run through these chord progressions and aim to do nothing more complex than root-third-fifth-seventh for each chord. Nail doing that pattern until it gets boring. Then try either mixing up the progression while keeping the same note pattern or keep the same progression while mixing up the note pattern. Take your time with it because eventually it’ll begin to stick. Once you’re comfortable with your arpeggios then you can begin adding in the second, fourth, and blue note (b5) to your note patterns. At this point, you’ll want to slow down and really pay attention to the musicality of your note choices and figure out if they both outline the current chord and invoke the overall progression. If it sounds good - it is good. If it sounds bad then hey - it’s Jazz baby.

Yep, that's exactly what I am doing. It is a derivation of something I picked-up from the way Scott presents the arpeggios. I expect it to take months, but it is worth it.

While I am still slow, reading standard notation is coming faster than I expected, which gives me hope. I'm sort-of hitting a wall though. I don't want to do all my reading on the first 5 frets and snaking-up the G string, but when reading, I have the same issue as with playing arpeggios over rapid chord changes: I don't KNOW the fretboard yet. Working on it...

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

If you really want to learn the fingerboard, this is probably one of the best methods . . .



If you give these exercises their due diligence you will start seeing the arpeggios from any chord tone -- the root, the 3rd, the 5th -- and will be able to navigate thru chord changes with much more ease.

It's not easy and it won't happen overnight. But this should get you to where you know the fingerboard intimately!

Best of luck . . .

I love this place! Added to my list...

 

[mambo4]

A skilled player once advised me: "transcribe Ray Brown"
Get Jazz recordings
Get the Charts for them
Work that shiz out

 

[dreamadream99]

Jazz uses walking basslines. Arpeggios are only one way to walk. There is also Scales, and chromatically.
The bass player’s job in a jazz band is to forecast the next chord change. Do this by walking linearly from root to root, With the key and the chord guiding note choice.

 

[Persona87]

Building Walking Bass Lines (Bass Builders) https://smile.amazon.com/dp/0793542049/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_HWKW1PSJTCGNBTJ6FTQ2?_encoding=UTF8&psc=1

This is a really good book for learning how to play in a walking bass style. It doesn’t really teach you how to read music or how to memorize the fingerboard, but when it comes to learning the fundamentals of walking, it’s very useful. Hope this helps!

 

[glocke1]

Aging play-for-fun rock/country bass player here.

Most of my playing has been on simple I-IV-V non-syncopated songs, or the harmonic equivalent thereof.

I'm currently trying to learn - really learn - the fretboard, in order to play more complex songs, and read standard notation.

My problem: I am currently working on arpeggios with Jazz backing-tracks, where there are chord-changes on every measure. I know the arpeggio patterns, and basic music theory, but being used to simple songs, I always want to play the root in unfamiliar territory. When playing Jazz (like) tunes, any basic guidelines for gracefully connecting the arpeggios in a more "jazz-like" way, without playing the root all the time?

For now, I want to focus on arpeggios (with a bit of chromatics and articulation), learning the fretboard, and frequent chord-changes. I know scales/modes sound better, and I know the modes (alas, from a rock/country perspective), but for now, I want to stick with chord-tones.

Be gentle - this is just a hobby for me, but I do want to take my playing to the next level...

Im certainly no strong jazzer, not by any stretch of the imagination but after far too many decades of playing, and several blocks of time in life where I've tried to get better at jazz, the best approach I've learned to getting better at this genre is to just slow everything down, and break things down into their smaller components.

For example, take on of the progressions you are working on, set a metronome to 80 bpm or even 60 bpm and play through the progressions as follows:

For example:

Chorus 1: Root notes (Whole tones)
Chorus 2: 3rd of the chord for each measure (whole notes)
Chorus 3: 7th of the chord for each measure (whole notes again)

The next pass through try this, again at a slow speed, and again this is all whole notes:

Chorus 1: Alternating roots and 3rds on each measure. For example if you have a ii V I in C Major, measure 1 would be a D, measure 2 would be a B note, measure there a C.
Chorus : alternating roots and 7ths as above...

etc...etc...of course you should also just work on playing arpeggios through the changes in front of you, again slowly.

Playing jazz isn't easy, and wrapping your head around what to play, how to walk, how the chord tones relate to the chord you are on and also the next chord all takes time for your brain to process, but trust me...If you work on these things slowly and methodically they will eventually become imprinted on your brain matter and will become second nature.

If you are able to, get with a teacher who is a jazzer also.

 

[OldSchoolFlats]

Jazz uses walking basslines. Arpeggios are only one way to walk. There is also Scales, and chromatically.
The bass player’s job in a jazz band is to forecast the next chord change. Do this by walking linearly from root to root, With the key and the chord guiding note choice.

Yes, the intervals in arpeggios sound too "wide", but for now, I'm just trying to get down the chord-tones. This does explain why it doesn't "sound right", though.