Jazz scales

[adisu]

Hello all.
A small question about Jazz scales.

Till now when i improvised on jazz starndards harmonics i used to play around on the regular scale modes (Ionian , Dorian , Prygian , ETC.)

Today i bumped into [Invalid or Expired Link Removed] Jazz scales (look for the Jazz scales page on the left side) which are modes of the Melodic minor scale.

When do i use those when improvising in jazz?? , should i learn then , could they really be useful when improvising a jazzy solo??

Thanks in advance.
Adisu.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Get "The Jazz theory Book" by Mark Levine and work through it slowly and gradually.

There are actually more scales than those - like diminished whole tone/half tone etc.

But your question is not simple and probably requires a lifetime of study!!

 

[All_¥our_Bass]

Try out "Altered." It's Major #1, and "Ultra Locrian" (a.k.a. "Maximum Flat") it's R b2 bb3 bb4 bb5 bb6 bb7 (H H H W W W)

 

[slybass3000]

I wouldn't say that Jazz scales are only based on the minor melodic scales. It is probably call like that because we refer the melodic minor scale as the melodic jazz scale because it comes down the same way as it goes up. The modes based on this scale are very uniques and have very specific uses.

If you are looking for jazz scales that are very useful check out the mixo passing tone scale (be-bop scale) 1-2-3-4-5-6-b7-7-1. and the major be-bop scale 1-2-3-4-5-#5-6-7-1. Anything that is related to the major scale like ii-v-i in major AND in minor would fit with those two scales. You just have to learn how to use them! If you want the minor harmonic sound over a ii-v in minor then use the mode build on the v degree with the passing tone between the 1 and b7 (jewish scale) dmi7(b5)-g7(b9) would be G-Gb-F-Eb-D-C-B-Ab-G (C min harmonic scale).

As an easy rule use the major scale in major build on the I and use the minor harmonic scale based on the I as well.

The minor melodic scale would give differents colors especially in minor keys.

SB

 

[iplaybassguitar]

i fail to see the usefulness in these fancy scales that are called "jazz scales"

not criticizing, i just dont get it, can anyone help?

now im no master in jazz theory, but from what i understand...
MOST
jazz is made up of chord changes and progressions...
MOST OF THE TIME
the bass line is not a bass line, it is just chord charts that you read and improvise a line from
MOST OF THE TIME
the bass improvises off what the chord changes say, and that becomes the bass line...when the lead instrument comes in...they generally use the same thing, they might solo on the melody changing it up a bit...or they might improvise off the chord changes.......now, they only use the chords that are given to them, so what i dont understand why these fancy scales are needed unless the chord calls for them.

 

[slybass3000]

i fail to see the usefulness in these fancy scales that are called "jazz scales"

not criticizing, i just dont get it, can anyone help?

now im no master in jazz theory, but from what i understand...
MOST
jazz is made up of chord changes and progressions...
MOST OF THE TIME
the bass line is not a bass line, it is just chord charts that you read and improvise a line from
MOST OF THE TIME
the bass improvises off what the chord changes say, and that becomes the bass line...when the lead instrument comes in...they generally use the same thing, they might solo on the melody changing it up a bit...or they might improvise off the chord changes.......now, they only use the chords that are given to them, so what i dont understand why these fancy scales are needed unless the chord calls for them.

The "jazz scales" help you to outlined the chords effectively because the introduction of a passing note give you a scale with 8 notes instead of 7. So this way you always land on a chord tone even if you go up or down the scale. It is good for a bassline or for soloing.

SB

 

[jadesmar]

i fail to see the usefulness in these fancy scales that are called "jazz scales"

not criticizing, i just dont get it, can anyone help?

now im no master in jazz theory, but from what i understand...
MOST
jazz is made up of chord changes and progressions...
MOST OF THE TIME
the bass line is not a bass line, it is just chord charts that you read and improvise a line from
MOST OF THE TIME
the bass improvises off what the chord changes say, and that becomes the bass line...when the lead instrument comes in...they generally use the same thing, they might solo on the melody changing it up a bit...or they might improvise off the chord changes.......now, they only use the chords that are given to them, so what i dont understand why these fancy scales are needed unless the chord calls for them.

Probably won't make it far as a composer.

Not even sure if what you are describing could be considered writing a bass part.

But, I'm feeling argumentative. So feel free to ignore me.

 

[Mark Wilson]

i fail to see the usefulness in these fancy scales that are called "jazz scales"

not criticizing, i just dont get it, can anyone help?

now im no master in jazz theory, but from what i understand...
MOST
jazz is made up of chord changes and progressions...
MOST OF THE TIME
the bass line is not a bass line, it is just chord charts that you read and improvise a line from
MOST OF THE TIME
the bass improvises off what the chord changes say, and that becomes the bass line...when the lead instrument comes in...they generally use the same thing, they might solo on the melody changing it up a bit...or they might improvise off the chord changes.......now, they only use the chords that are given to them, so what i dont understand why these fancy scales are needed unless the chord calls for them.

You know. You've described a song?

Anyways, yes. We (Jazz bassists) Improvise over chords. Which makes it a bass line. How can you say it's not a bass line when modern bass lines are based upon Jazz or Blues?

Now, you can get into serious theory. Using Tri Tone Substitutions in C major, you use the b2 dominant 7th to substitute for the V dom. 7. The b2, you can use a C# Altered scale, or a Db Lydian b5.

So, yes. Certain degrees call for different scales.
Dom7- Mixolydian, Or even Dominant Bebop.
Mi2- Dorian

etc. etc.

 

[Erick Lam]

i fail to see the usefulness in these fancy scales that are called "jazz scales"

(...)

so what i dont understand why these fancy scales are needed unless the chord calls for them.

That's a pretty good reason, no?

Two common "jazz scales" outline the dominant chord:

altered = G-Ab-A#-B-Db-D#-F

You can see you have the b9, #9, b5 and #5 covered.

The other is myxoyidian #11 (not sure how you call it in English). It's just a plain myxolydian with... a raised 11th. It goes G-A-B-C#-D-E-F.

The scales aren't any more fancy than other scales. It's still the same 12 notes. There's also a lot to say about the dominant chord, substitution, bla bla bla. In the end, what's important is to hear it, know when to use it and be able to play on your instrument.

 

[iplaybassguitar]

i get what you guys are saying...it just seems easier to me to look at the chord and know what notes i need rather than look at the chord, associate it with a scale i know, then try and think of what notes from THAT scale i can use to put in my line.

 

[iplaybassguitar]

Probably won't make it far as a composer.

Not even sure if what you are describing could be considered writing a bass part.

But, I'm feeling argumentative. So feel free to ignore me.

well, i never said i wanted to be a composer...

plus, in most jazz, the basslines aren't "composed'', or "written", so who knows, maybe ill be the best jazz bassist ever.

 

[adisu]

i get what you guys are saying...it just seems easier to me to look at the chord and know what notes i need rather than look at the chord, associate it with a scale i know, then try and think of what notes from THAT scale i can use to put in my line.

Yes that's true when you walk the bassline or play the line regular bassline, but it's much harder to play a solo and try to stick to the chords all along the solo , it's much easier to just know the main scale (if the part is moving from one scale to other scale know when and move along with it) and solo on the scale and it's mods, that's why I asked at first place when should i use the melodic minor scale?? what chords can i fit it to?? so then i can move to this scale when the chords apear and go back to the regular part scale and mods when the next chord played.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

well, i never said i wanted to be a composer...

plus, in most jazz, the basslines aren't "composed'', or "written", so who knows, maybe ill be the best jazz bassist ever.

I think it was Wayne Shorter who said that in Jazz - improvising is just "fast composing" and composing is just "slow improvising"!!

 

[slybass3000]

i get what you guys are saying...it just seems easier to me to look at the chord and know what notes i need rather than look at the chord, associate it with a scale i know, then try and think of what notes from THAT scale i can use to put in my line.

It is the important thing to know about music theory: what is THE scale that fit in this chord at this particular moment in the song.
Of course you can stick to the 1-5 and you'll be fine but if you wanna go further,then you need to know the exact modes for each chords. It is what makes the music better: the right notes in the basslines!

SB

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

It is the important thing to know about music theory: what is THE scale that fit in this chord at this particular moment in the song.

Sorry this is just wrong or misleading....?

So there are always several possible scales that will fit at any point in a chord sequence - Jazz improvisors add character to their solos by the choices they make - some scales will sound more or less dissonant - but it is never the case that there is one single "right" choice!

If this was the case then solos would be pretty boring....

 

[Phil Smith]

One thing you know that fits are the notes of the chord and the notes of the melody at that moment.

 

[iplaybassguitar]

i get what your all saying about how these scales will sound good over certain chords and it could be helpful to know them, it just seems like a lot of stuff to know and think about while your playing and it seems kinda unnecessary.

if you just play a solo and stick (roughly) to the chord changes, it will probably sound fine...if you want more spice, how can anything be more spicy than throwing in some chromatic stuff, its just a matter of knowing where and when to do so.

if you look at it the way you are, you will have to think of what chord you're on, relate it back to a scale, then stick within the confines of that/those scale(s). that seems a lot more restricting than just playing, and isnt jazz supposed to be the music that has no restrictions?

i dont really think there is any way you can 'learn' by learning all of the rules inside and out, knowing every scale out there, id bet anyone that at least 75 percent of the big jazz bassists did not know all of that stuff. i think the only way to get good at jazz, or any music for that matter, would be to just sit down and play.

 

[slybass3000]

Sorry this is just wrong or misleading....?

So there are always several possible scales that will fit at any point in a chord sequence - Jazz improvisors add character to their solos by the choices they make - some scales will sound more or less dissonant - but it is never the case that there is one single "right" choice!

If this was the case then solos would be pretty boring....

You are right about this and so I'm!
We can play in the chords or over the chords or over the tonality as well as far as soloing! But in a bassline we have to be more careful about the choices we make as far as note choices.
That was my point. It is not because someone learn the dorian mode that they should use it over all the minor chords they'll encounter.

SB

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Well if we're talking about a bass line - then
I wouldn't even be thinking about alternate scales, I would be concentrating on outlining the chord changes and playing the tune, as Phil says.

This is basically what your job is when supporting or "comping" - of course a knowledge of scales helps you in constructing flowing lines - but if you're not playing the changes then you aren't really helping what else is going on !!