Jazz soloing technique

[higain617]

While I didn't necessarily play jazz, I made frequent use of melodic minors, chromatic runs, etc. I have a limited musical training, but do have a good ear.

 

[IamGroot]

I'm gonna give my personal take on this. Somebody else may feel differently and that's fine by me, since I don't claim to be an expert... I apologize in advance for all the longwinded blah blah.

Anyway, in talking about Haslip, he typically solos in a Fusion jazz style, not bebop or standard style. But of course, it really depends on the song.

In the Standard style, the most talked about approach is to embellish the melody/chord tones and there are various methods/techniques you can learn to do that. You can use chord tone enclosures, you can use note targeting, etc. I'm not gonna get into all that...

In fusion, that stuff doesn't matter that much. It's about creating a "vibe" not making changes. So when you talk about what "Scale" he's playing, 99% of the time it's just the major scale of the key, played from different positions of the neck. When you play a major scale from different positions, what you end up doing is playing modes, i.e. you are just playing the major scale from different starting points. Now, when you play modes in this context you are not playing a mode in the traditional sense. You are just playing a scale shape and looking for a "sound". The sound of the underlying harmony is what will dictate the quality of the scale, not the scale shape or notes you are playing.

So, for example, if I play the chord tones, pentatonics, scale permutations of a C major scale, when I solo, but the pianist or guitarist is playing an "A" minor chord underneath my solo, I'm not playing the "Ionian" mode. I'm playing "Aeolian". It's the harmonic underpinning that dictates what the chord/mode quality is, not the notes I play when I solo. Why? The answer is obvious. EVERY note in EVERY mode (of a diatonic key) is exactly the same. It's the synergy of the two musicians that creates the harmony. NOT me, as a soloist playing "Ionian" material.

So I say all that to mean, it doesn't matter what notes you play over the chords when you play diatonically. The notes do not matter at all. What matters, is your phrasing, the way you connect the notes, and the vibe you create... I think Victor Wooten talked about this stuff when he described the 10 things to be aware of when you solo. He ended that talk by saying that the notes were the least important of the 10 items.

Again, this is my take on it. Someone else surely sees it in a different way. I'm not gonna spend a lot of time overthinking this stuff though... It's just really not that hard theory wise. The execution is the hard part. Doing it with the conviction and confidence that comes from working on those scales and patterns and vocabulary to the point that it comes out automatically is the hard part.

Good post. Knowing what mode/scale you are in helps choosing which finger board position you are in, if you play 4 fingered . For example, A majot would be position 4. All A minors use position 5 or 7. A Locrian position 4, A pentatonic major position 2. These rules arent hard and fast but help line up your playing like a pool shot. Going up the neck has similar pattern.

 

[Spin Doctor]

When I study famous jazz tunes, it seems like 50% or fewer of the notes come from the diatonic scale. I see an awful lot of sharp and flat symbols being used. So to my thinking, that disproves the music theory that "diatonic scales are the most important concept in jazz improvisation".

Just to be the Devil's Advocate, how do you know this? Most jazz tunes can have a few, to several key centers, so what you may see as not being "diatonic" to a particular "Key" as dictated by the key signature at the top of the chart, may be very diatonic to a key center within the tune.

And so, if diatonic information isn't the most important concept in jazz improvisation, I really have to know what you think IS the most important... And just out of curiosity, do you play a lot of jazz? I'm always willing to check out new ideas...

 

[hintz]

But someone somewhere must have come up with it first ... how did that guy did it without anyone to steal ???

I still think that licks are good for building vocabulary but ultimatly you just want to follow your imagination. Sing what you are doing. Allow yourself to make mistake. Practice improvisation no time to think just do.

Great point for sure, sorta the "chicken versus the egg" thing ! I do believe Jaco sorta meant to make those ideas your own more or less...either way he did say something along those lines and yet *nobody* sounded like him before.

 

[mrcbass]

So we don't need to "guess" what is the best way to learn jazz.

I don't think anybody has said scales are the "best way" to learn jazz - they are just part of the toolbox for LEARNING - not performing (in most cases).

 

[matthewbrown]

Chord tones. Chord tones. Chord tones.

It's a really worthwhile exercise to practice an ENTIRE solo using only chord tones. Then you can concentrate on dynamics, phrasing, and leaving space. Hal Crook recommends this, and I've found it a good approach to take my mind of what notes to play, and focus on HOW I'm playing them.

 

[IamGroot]

Jaco was a big fan of diatonic scales. I learned bass from his method video and playing modes up the neck was one of the first exercises. Also was a key element of my first DB instructor, Bill Miller who was a fantastic soloist.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Jaco was a big fan of diatonic scales. I learned bass from his method video and playing modes up the neck was one of the first exercises. Also was a key element of my first DB instructor, Bill Miller who was a fantastic soloist.

Thank you. I'm becoming very convinced that the only people who think diatonic scales are not an important part of jazz solos are people who really and truly don't know much about the topic. They just say random stuff because they think they do, for whatever reason... It's so annoying. Like my talkbass pet peeve.

Is it because they think, "hey it can't be that easy". Or "it doesn't sound like jazz" or who knows... "Diatonic" is the glue that holds the solo together. It's not just a bunch of mysterious, esoteric crap.

 

[Mushroo]

Just to be the Devil's Advocate, how do you know this? Most jazz tunes can have a few, to several key centers, so what you may see as not being "diatonic" to a particular "Key" as dictated by the key signature at the top of the chart, may be very diatonic to a key center within the tune.

And so, if diatonic information isn't the most important concept in jazz improvisation, I really have to know what you think IS the most important... And just out of curiosity, do you play a lot of jazz? I'm always willing to check out new ideas...

Oh, I'm very much a jazz novice, but ever since I've been a little boy, I've loved playing the role of "know it all".

I think I mentioned it in my first post in this thread: for me, the most important concept is building musical vocabulary by studying melodies and solos.

For example the tune "Blue Monk," now I don't claim any great insight into Thelonious Monk's thought process, but as I study this melody, certain "musical ideas" or "themes" start to jump out at me. For example there is a "jazzy sounding" idea of using chromatics to connect between chord tones (from D to F, the 3rd and 5th of Bb7, in measure 1; or from G to Bb, the 3rd and 5th of Eb7, in measure 2) and a "bluesy sounding" idea exploring the contrast between the blue note C#/Db and the major 3rd D natural. I don't claim full understanding, but it seems to me this song is "about" something, that Monk was trying to "say" something when he wrote this tune. A player who grasps that "something" (i.e. musical vocabulary) has the tools improvise a more authentic-sounding solo than a player who thinks "Bb Mixolydian for the Bb7 chord, Eb Mixolydian for the Eb7 chord, and F Mixolydian for the F7 chord."

You make a great point about changing key centers. For example, looking at the chart for "Giant Steps" I can see there are a lot of sharps and flats on the page, so at first glance I might assume it is very chromatic-sounding music. But as I shift my perspective in terms of modulating through different keys, then the notes of the melody are revealed to be diatonic to the key center of the moment. Good observation, and I don't disagree.

 

[40Hz]

Reading some of the “holier than thou” (or maybe “jazzier than you”) comments here reminds me just what it was that turned me off to the whole genre so many years ago.

 

[Spin Doctor]

Reading some of the “holier than thou” (or maybe “jazzier than you”) reminds me just what it was that turned me off to the whole genre.

LOL, well it's not a matter of anyone being jazzier than anyone else, but when people write random misinformation, I just gotta call it. I can't help myself. But nobody cares if you don't like jazz. I don't like math core. Nobody cares...

 

[Groove Master]

Jazz technique?

Work on your legato, slides, jazz phrasing with accents on the upbeats, your hammer-ons and pull-offs

 

[Whousedtoplay]

When I study famous jazz tunes, it seems like 50% or fewer of the notes come from the diatonic scale. I see an awful lot of sharp and flat symbols being used. So to my thinking, that disproves the music theory that "diatonic scales are the most important concept in jazz improvisation."

From Bert Ligon's book, "Jazz Theory Resources".

 

[BD Jones]

I teach jazz improv to middle school students (been doing so for 20 years, though eight of those were also to high school student). We use scales (of all kinds) and arpeggios, but our main tool is this:
Home
It really works. It helps you to understand which notes sound best over chords and builds your vocabulary. Obviously, this isn't the be all end all of what will work for jazz soloing and what notes sound best, but it is a great start. But, one thing that I stress to my students isn't just what notes to play but what rhythm to play. Inexperienced soloist will make either one of two mistakes: the rely too heavily on the melody (with both note selection and rhythms) or come up with rhythms that don't fit within the context of the piece. Yes, basing your improv on the melody is never wrong, but you can over do it. But, the most important lesson I give to my students is this: with improv, there are no wrong notes (or rhythms), just better choices.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Jazz technique?

Work on your legato, jazz phrasing with accents on the upbeats, your hammer-ons and pull-offs

I doubt that even ONE commentator in this thread mentioned the RHYTHMIC aspects of ANY phrasing.
Everybody is just looking for that "magic" note, magic scale like some kind of panacea to soloing.

 

[Groove Master]

I watch players soloing some jazz sounding chops, I solo but never can create the sound, what scales are being used in a jazz solo.
Thanks

The sound of jazz is in the passing-tones. Most scales have 7 pitches and jazz players introduce at least one extra note to make it 8 pitches which is perfectly align with the 4/4 music.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The sound of jazz is in the passing-tones. Most scales have 7 pitches and jazz players introduce at least one extra note to make it 8 pitches which is perfectly align with the 4/4 music.

Can you know what the passing-tones are without knowing the diatonic scales?

 

[Spin Doctor]

The sound of jazz is in the passing-tones. Most scales have 7 pitches and jazz players introduce at least one extra note to make it 8 pitches which is perfectly align with the 4/4 music.

Bebop scales are good in that regard... I still don't get them, really, lol

 

[Groove Master]

Can you know what the passing-tones are without knowing the diatonic scales?

I guess not....lol

 

[Groove Master]

Bebop scales are good in that regard... I still don't get them, really, lol

It is pretty simple actually. What is it that you don't understand? Because it is so useful in any situation, not just soloing.