Double Bass Jazz vs. "smooth jazz"? How to articulate the difference?

[Paul Warburton]

Yea Marcus! That's what I'd call the roots of smooth right there. Where's my hot tub? Or is that the sound track for the next meeting of PW and Ed Fuqua's cat?

Damn Spot won't have a chance to scream like that........be dead.
Sorry 'bout the OT. My bad.

 

[Pacman]

Mile inspired the musicians who formed the Mahavishnu Orchestra and that's as far from smooth as you can get, again!!

I can't imagine hearing some of those frenetic exchanges of blistering solos on a commercial radio show!!

hmm.....

 

[Paul Warburton]

Man..............I do love Miles. Any old time.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I am talking about Dave Koz, Kirk Whalum, Rick Braun, Boney James, Brian Culbertson, Norman Brown, Jeff Lorber, Chris Botti, Richard Elliot, Joe Sample, Gerald Albright....

What's interesting again is that none of these are known at all in Europe, apart from maybe Joe Sample for his work with the Crusaders and George Benson...?

So I can talk to people here in the UK, about all sorts of real American Jazz artists - like Cannonball Adderley,Charles Mingus,Art Blakey,Horace Silver,Lee Morgan,Blue Mitchell,John Coltrane,Dizzie Gillespie,Charlie Parker, Eric Dolphy, Monk etc etc on to a list of hundreds of names that I could mention at my local Jazz club and get recognition and people would tell me what tunes they love and something about them.


But if I mentioned those names above - it would just be a blank!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

in Europe smooth jazz is called "American jazz."

Well, it's not called that in the UK - the kind of artists I have listed above are known as American Jazz - smooth jazz is just unknown in the UK except as a bad joke.

So - if I talk to people in the UK about Jazz, they will think of Miles,Coltrane etc.

If I mention Kenny G - the only answer I will get, refers to a bad joke about when the manager of the England Football team was telling a player he was dropped from the team, he would play Kenny G in the background, in his office!!

 

[PsychoScout]

The Wikipedia entry is a bit ambiguous since, as we've discovered, in Europe smooth jazz is called "American jazz."

No it's not , Europeans produce an equal amount of crap but don't get paid as much as their American colleagues for doing so.

We do like/love the good stuff Americans produce (and would never call that "smooth jazz")
Imo European jazz musicians are often too polite/soft...

 

[Jack Clark]

I'm glad to learn from at least two European TBers that they do not hear the term "American jazz" used over there for what is termed smooth jazz here in the US. My friend was hearing it during his jazz-related trip to Germany. I hope that was just an isolated instance.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Well - we just don't have that kind of music here - so there is no need for a term for it!

Although I notice in the other thread that Sade was counted - whereas, that is a British pop band from the 80s ...

 

[MLysh]

I would argue that Creed Taylor has to rank very high on the importance scale as well, as far as the roots of smooth jazz go (actually I was incorrect earlier, "Movin' Wes" was his first collaboration wigth Wes Montgomery). Whether or not Miles is "definitely the most important" progenitor I think requires actually making a case rather than a statement, especially given Taylor's establishment of the very influential CTI records circa 1970.

A case needs to be made for Miles being the most influential jazz artist of his time to embrace rock and funk in an effort to reach a wider audience?

 

[PsychoScout]

Well - we just don't have that kind of music here - so there is no need for a term for it!

Although I notice in the other thread that Sade was counted - whereas, that is a British pop band from the 80s ...

perhaps it's just like this

smooth jazz => BG

jazz => DB

kiddin'! (but not entirely)

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

perhaps it's just like this

smooth jazz => BG

jazz => DB

kiddin'! (but not entirely)

Well it may be why we differ from the US - so over the last 10 years or so I have been to as many Jazz gigs as I can, listened to Jazz radio and TV etc. etc.

99.9% of the time if it was Jazz - then it was DB and I could count on one hand, the times I have seen BG in a Jazz group over here in the UK!

 

[PsychoScout]

Well it may be why we differ from the US - so over the last 10 years or so I have been to as many Jazz gigs as I can, listened to Jazz radio and TV etc. etc.

99.9% of the time if it was Jazz - then it was DB and I could count one hand, the times I have seen BG in a Jazz group over here in the UK!

I have the impression that if you give the bass player a BG for playing jazz, he gets lazy. I've seen this happen with some great bass players.

Give them a DB and they're creative, and give energy to the whole group, give them a BG and they fall into the background, just playing basic grooves. Needles to say this doesn't help the whole performance. (they all become a "soft" version of themselves)

 

[uprightbass.com]

Kenny G does not play smooth jazz. He plays instrumental pop music. It is actually a specific Grammy category

...

But at the edge of this instrumental pop and real jazz is some wonderful music that I like and that I think does swing. Maybe this music is not as good as the Fusion music of Weather Report or Foreplay or The Rippingtons, but no way can you compare it to Kenny G. I am talking about Dave Koz, Kirk Whalum, Rick Braun, Boney James, Brian Culbertson, Norman Brown, Jeff Lorber, Chris Botti, Richard Elliot, Joe Sample, Gerald Albright. I like that music. I know it is popular. It is fairy predictable. It is highly produced. But, these guys are on the good edge of this type of music. These people have good music on their CDs along with the highly produced stuff, and when you see them live, they absolutely do swing.

Kenny G is the poster child of smooth jazz. He's at the smooth jazz festivals, is a smooth jazz DJ, and even considers himself smooth jazz.

You really think those guys absolutely swing huh? How is it that they can swing live if they don't even remotely swing on recordings?

 

[eggfan]

A case needs to be made for Miles being the most influential jazz artist of his time to embrace rock and funk in an effort to reach a wider audience?

I thought you were referring to smooth jazz specifically rather than "a wider audience" in a more general sense. I don't doubt that some of the roots of smooth jazz can be found in Miles' music, as they can be found elsewhere. The first jazz musician or group to have a strong appeal with rock fans was probably Charles Lloyd, for example, but yeah, Miles' influence on the expansion of jazz to include the particular elements you cite was groundbreaking and monumental. Other important elements of smooth jazz emanated from other sources.

 

[Watchootognbout]

Seven years.

There.
I said it first.
The fundamental difference between "Smooth Jazz" and "Jazz"is that Jazz has drive,tension,suspense and dissonance.
And it has improvised solos.

 

[james condino]

Laugh all you want, but Kenny G is worth $50 million; how's that "jazz" paying for you???????

Kenny G Net Worth

 

[Watchootognbout]

Laugh all you want, but Kenny G is worth $50 million; how's that "jazz" paying for you???????

Kenny G Net Worth

Yeah well,heroin,meth and crack are selling big too.
Is that a good thing?
As regards Kenny G:a whole lot of people like some real bland stuff!

A great deal of musicians don't play music just to make top dollar.
They play it because they love the art.

 

[Ed Fuqua]

Laugh all you want, but Kenny G is worth $50 million; how's that "jazz" paying for you???????

Kenny G Net Worth

And Wayne Shorter is only worth about a quarter of a million, but who is making the most music these days? Wayne's playing music, Kenny's playing golf.

 

[james condino]

I've been playing gigs since I was 7 years old. As much as I enjoy it, at this point I'd rather be retired and surfing in Costa Rica everyday with Kenny.....

 

[Ed Fuqua]

To each his own, I'd be happy to go out like Warne or Eddie Gladden....