Jazz vs. Smooth Jazz

[fearceol]

Yup - Sanborn is a great player, certainly a virtuoso, who has definitely played some Jazz, during his long career!

...played "some" jazz !! But of course he has to be a jazzer, because he is in the book.. eh Bruce ??

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

...played "some" jazz !! But of course he has to be a jazzer, because he is in the book.. eh Bruce ??

There were some great albums with the Brecker Brothers - nice mix of real Jazz and different grooves etc.

 

[fearceol]

There were some great albums with the Brecker Brothers - nice mix of real Jazz and different grooves etc.

Very true. I have always been a big fan of Sanborn's. He also featured on an album with Tim Berne (I think) playing the music of Julius Hempell. However, (although he does not like the idea himself), he is generally considered by most to be of that dreaded "smooth" genre.

What must Messrs Cook and Morton have been thinking, to contaminate the jazz "bible" this way.


Seriously, when you think of it, is n't all this labeling silly and futile ? I certainly think so.

 

[TonyP-]

+1.

It's all music. Just because a certain type of music is challenging and complex, does not make it any more "real" or superior to another genre. "Real" music is in the ear of the beholder. Often, smooth jazz is a gateway into jazz for some (it was for me), as it's more instantly accessible.

What is the basic difference ? ... it's appeal.

and also a +1 to this as well.
It is what it is...I can appreciate what 'Jazz' has it offer as a whole.

Once you start turning your nose up in the air it says more about a person than the subject in question.

 

[willgroove2]

Yup - Sanborn is a great player, certainly a virtuoso, who has definitely played some Jazz, during his long career!



Wes Montgomery is a great Jazz player - "Smoking at the Half Note" is one of the great Jazz albums - the fact that his music has been played on a particular radio station makes no difference to that fact!

When Wes Montgomery was playing - it was Jazz and nothing else had been thought of - you cannot change this music retrospectively!

It's like saying certain Beethoven or Mozart tunes are now re-classified as "Chill-Out" music, because they were played on "RelaxFM" ....!! :scowl:

Patently ridiculous!!

Wes was a great Musician but what would you call this
by your standards of what jazz is or isn't? what I keep saying is Smooth Jazz is a marketing term. For a lot of people the minute Jazz or any other form or genre of music becomes more accessible to the general public it loses it's appeal,I actally thing much of the bias against "Smooth Jazz" is the fact that people who don't normally listin or like jazz like it

 

[Pacman]

Wes was a great Musician but what would you call this
by your standards of what jazz is or isn't? what I keep saying is Smooth Jazz is a marketing term. For a lot of people the minute Jazz or any other form or genre of music becomes more accessible to the general public it loses it's appeal,I actally thing much of the bias against "Smooth Jazz" is the fact that people who don't normally listin or like jazz like it

Sure, once a form of music gains a wider appeal, it's listeners have fewer people at whom to look down their noses. They must then find a more obscure form of music.

This isn't restricted to jazz, either. It crosses all genres.

 

[polydeathsphere]

I disagree with this sentiment, that somehow free jazz is inherantly the most complicated sort of music. Composed and written things can get a whole heck of a lot more complicated than free jazz could ever be. It's free, in that its totally improvised, and can therefore get pretty "out," which is what I think you mean by complicated. Saying free jazz is "out" and smooth jazz is "in" does make sense.

I never said Free Jazz was the most complicated sort of music, I only said its focus is inherently more complex than the focus of smooth jazz, which is a almost always a very apparent melody line or hook. If anything I'd say the most complicated music there is is through composed with limited improvisation. Sorry if it came off weird but you really misquoted me there.

 

[fearceol]

Sure, once a form of music gains a wider appeal, it's listeners have fewer people at whom to look down their noses. They must then find a more obscure form of music.

I completely agree. That is why I asked the question below in an earlier post. I notice no one would commit to an answer. No need to I suppose, as we all know the answer.

I have a question for the Jazz "purists". It is always said, (and rightly so), that jazz does not get the amount of publicity and air play it deserves.

So, would you like to hear it played on all elevators, supermarkets and shopping malls etc ??

No "if's", "but's" or "maybe's"... just Yes or No.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Seriously, when you think of it, is n't all this labeling silly and futile ? I certainly think so.

But the thread is asking the question - it's just about trying to answer what was asked. In real life this exact question never comes up for me, as the term Smooth Jazz, is something I never hear in the UK or Europe!

People do ask me what Jazz is though and I have a lot of discussions with other people about what makes something Jazz or not.

So - I go to Jazz jams or workshops where there are people new to Jazz or beginners and there are often people coming from other genres who want to talk about what makes it Jazz.

There is definitely an audience for Jazz which is very different to rock/pop etc. A lot of pubs in Sussex, where I live, like to put on Jazz and they will expect a more mature audience, who know what they want!

So - it's something that is a big topic of conversation with fellow musicians locally in terms of what is Jazz, what should we be doing, playing etc.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Wes was a great Musician but what would you call this
by your standards of what jazz is or isn't?

So - what you are saying is that you look down on this piece - you think it is "not worthy" of being classed as Jazz..?

I think it's amusing as I have never applied any value judgments and have said purely practical things - like for me, Jazz needs to involve improvisation and spontaneity.

And how does it help the discussion/debate if we just talk about personal preferences?

There are things that Charlie Parker did, that I maybe like less than some other things - but that makes no difference to the fact that he was a great innovator and musical genius in terms of Jazz history!

 

[fearceol]

But the thread is asking the question - it's just about trying to answer what was asked. In real life this exact question never comes up for me, as the term Smooth Jazz, is something I never hear in the UK or Europe!

People do ask me what Jazz is though and I have a lot of discussions with other people about what makes something Jazz or not.

So - I go to Jazz jams or workshops where there are people new to Jazz or beginners and there are often people coming from other genres who want to talk about what makes it Jazz.

There is definitely an audience for Jazz which is very different to rock/pop etc. A lot of pubs in Sussex, where I live, like to put on Jazz and they will expect a more mature audience, who know what they want!

So - it's something that is a big topic of conversation with fellow musicians locally in terms of what is Jazz, what should we be doing, playing etc.

Fair enough, the thread is asking the question alright, but that does not take from the fact of it being futile a exercise IMO. More listening and playing, and less analysing would be a lot better. As for what jazz is ? Was it not a famous name (cant remember exactly who)that said, "if you have to ask..." I doubt if all the jazz icons (Miles, Coltrane, Parker etc) analysed what they should or should not be doing in order to break new ground. I'd say it was more a case of having an idea and going with it.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Fair enough, the thread is asking the question alright, but that does not take from the fact of it being futile a exercise IMO. More listening and playing, and less analysing would be a lot better. As for what jazz is ? .

Well- you could say that talking about music is a futile exercise and that we should just do more listening and playing - but then you would have no TalkBass !

I tend to be on TB when I am in situations where I am away from music/instruments, but am still thinking about them!

If we couldn't talk about this kind of thing - then we wouldn't be here(TB) in the first place!!

 

[fearceol]

Well- you could say that talking about music is a futile exercise and that we should just do more listening and playing - but then you would have no TalkBass !

I tend to be on TB when I am in situations where I am away from music/instruments, but am still thinking about them!

If we couldn't talk about this kind of thing - then we wouldn't be here(TB) in the first place!!

I agree to a point.

Talking about music in general is a very enjoyable pass time. For example, who played on what album, who wrote song "x", how does "x" artist get that tone etc, I always find interesting. It is the labeling and pigeon-holing (plus the "it does not have this, so it cant be that" syndrome ), that bores the pants off me. IMO, there is no need for the word "versus" when talking about music. Oddly enough the music that this happens to the most is "jazz", and for the life of me, I cant think of any other reasons for this, except snobbery, and a feeling of superiority.

 

[willgroove2]

So - what you are saying is that you look down on this piece - you think it is "not worthy" of being classed as Jazz..?

I think it's amusing as I have never applied any value judgments and have said purely practical things - like for me, Jazz needs to involve improvisation and spontaneity.

And how does it help the discussion/debate if we just talk about personal preferences?

There are things that Charlie Parker did, that I maybe like less than some other things - but that makes no difference to the fact that he was a great innovator and musical genius in terms of Jazz history!

No I'm not looking down on that piece at all, I used it to comment on the fact that you seem to have these very fixed guidelines of what "real jazz"is or is not and I'm saying that there are a bunch of different ways jazz artist express themselves such as Wes Montgomery playing Beatles songs.Also I wanted to use that piece to illustrate that the sub-genre of jazz that came to become called Smooth jazz actually has a history that goes back to the 60's

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

No I'm not looking down on that piece at all, I used it to comment on the fact that you seem to have these very fixed guidelines of what "real jazz"is or is not and I'm saying that there are a bunch of different ways jazz artist express themselves such as Wes Montgomery playing Beatles songs.Also I wanted to use that piece to illustrate that the sub-genre of jazz that came to become called Smooth jazz actually has a history that goes back to the 60's

Well where have I said that my view was fixed...

I'm just trying to help the people who have asked questions about how you define these things - I have been very careful not to apply any value judgments in my posts and I am quite happy to see Wes as a great Jazz artist, while you seem to be trying to devalue what he did...

All this started where somebody said that maybe Smooth Jazz could be the stuff that doesn't have any improvisation/spontaneity and I said that if there is no improvisation then it is not Jazz!

I see this as one essential element of Jazz today, but there's a lot more to it and a lot of latitude!

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

I agree to a point.

Talking about music in general is a very enjoyable pass time. For example, who played on what album, who wrote song "x", how does "x" artist get that tone etc, I always find interesting. It is the labeling and pigeon-holing (plus the "it does not have this, so it cant be that" syndrome ), that bores the pants off me. IMO, there is no need for the word "versus" when talking about music. Oddly enough the music that this happens to the most is "jazz", and for the life of me, I cant think of any other reasons for this, except snobbery, and a feeling of superiority.

Well - I think the problem with Jazz is not snobbery or superiority - but rather that it is different from some forms of music and in forums like this, seems to be misunderstood...?


So people on TB will often say things like - "tell me some good Jazz tunes to play - I feel like playing Jazz!"

Whereas this is missing the point!

So - Jazz artists have always taken the popular music of the day and made it their own - by altering the chords, changing the feel and improvising over all of this, in a collaborative and interactive manner!

It is not about the material - but what you do with it!

Some of Miles' pieces have no tune and are just based on a few modes - the material is almost negligible - it is what those artists do with it and how they interact, which makes it Jazz!

This is not like other music - so a person could ask for folk tunes to play and when they play them - they could say quite reasonably - "I am playing Folk".

But just because you are playing a show tune written in the 1940s - does not mean you are playing Jazz!

So - when you are talking about Jazz - it can get awkward...?

 

[willgroove2]

But the thread is asking the question - it's just about trying to answer what was asked. In real life this exact question never comes up for me, as the term Smooth Jazz, is something I never hear in the UK or Europe!

Not to be rude or condescending But jazz is primarily a American invention rooted in the African-American experience so YOU not hearing the term in UK or Europe doesn't mean that the music isn't listened to or discussed,as I said earlier Ronny Jordan and Courtney Pine are both British artist who are played in the smooth jazz format

 

[willgroove2]

Well where have I said that my view was fixed...

I'm just trying to help the people who have asked questions about how you define these things - I have been very careful not to apply any value judgments in my posts and I am quite happy to see Wes as a great Jazz artist, while you seem to be trying to devalue what he did...

All this started where somebody said that maybe Smooth Jazz could be the stuff that doesn't have any improvisation/spontaneity and I said that if there is no improvisation then it is not Jazz!

I see this as one essential element of Jazz today, but there's a lot more to it and a lot of latitude!

I really don't get where I'm trying to devalue Wes Montgomery or what he did by showing that he played different styles of Jazz

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Not to be rude or condescending But jazz is primarily a American invention rooted in the African-American experience so YOU not hearing the term in UK or Europe doesn't mean that the music isn't listened to or discussed,as I said earlier Ronny Jordan and Courtney Pine are both British artist who are played in the smooth jazz format

I saw Courtney Pine play very recently and his music is a long way from smooth - lot of of Free Blowing, complex arrangements, fusions with other music like Reggae and overall he is seen as a leading light in the British Jazz scene - playing with the best players around!

Courtney Pine has been recognised as a great Jazz musician by the Arts Council of Great Britain and the BBC - he works with the best young talent as well and produced "Empirical" - who have also won many Jazz awards : http://www.bbc.co.uk/music/reviews/3cn8

Here is a list of the awards he has won :

2009 COMMANDER OF THE ORDER OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE (CBE)
- Queen’s New Year’s Honours

2007 URBAN MUSIC AWARDS
Best Jazz Act

2002 FELLOWSHIP
Leeds College of Music

2002 BBC JAZZ AWARDS
Best Live Band

2001 BRITISH FILM AWARDS NOMINATION Best Filmscore

2001 MOBO NOMINATION
Best Jazz Act

2000 ORDER OF THE BRITISH EMPIRE
(OBE) - Queen’s New Year’s Honours

1997 MOBO AWARD
Best Jazz Act

1997 MERCURY MUSIC PRIZE
Modern Day Jazz Stories
Nominated Best British Album of the Year

1996 MOBO AWARD - Best Jazz Act




Ronny Jordan was part of the 80s/90s scene called "Acid Jazz" which had nothing top do with Jazz and was more about a re-discovery of old school funk by bands like Jamiroquai,Brand New Heavies, Incognito etc.

 

[Bruce Lindfield]

Not to be rude or condescending But jazz is primarily a American invention rooted in the African-American experience so YOU not hearing the term in UK or Europe doesn't mean that the music isn't listened to or discussed,

Well - you actually quoted the part of my post where I said

"this exact question never comes up for me," !!!