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Double Bass Jimmy Garrison bootleg

#141
In your world/reality only one thing could have happened. This is the reason straight ahead players should have a stronger working knowledge of the avant garde (and I am not talking about Chick Corea post-Circle).

Reality is: Forgetting the form and trying to push things out SOUNDS EXACTLY the same with pitch based material.
In that period, with those musicians it really could be either.
Now, that is not a common thing to encounter, but free music WAS more integrated then.
That is my only point. This bass player, that time period opens things up to more than just one possibility.

thepontif said:
Dude, it is the real world that screams the reality here...the theory only quantifies it. That gig was just some bs club gig...probably (at the time) a meaningless snippet in time that is now a lucky treasure to have. Very few vibes players ever played that clear or swung that hard...especially in those days.

When you compare jg to any other human, and think about the last time you played a 5 hour club gig starting at 10pm as your second gig of the day, it's pretty easy to imagine that he just spaced.

Believe me, I can imagine many other situations. I also imagine that what happened is the most LIKELY thing. Because the most likely thing is USUALLY what happens.
Click to expand...
 
#142
damonsmith said:
Reality is: Forgetting the form and trying to push things out SOUNDS EXACTLY the same with pitch based material.
Click to expand...

With all due respect and borrowing PW's use of the phrase "kindly", I don't agree with this at all. Getting lost in the form sounds like playing a different part of the form at the wrong spot in the form. Taking it out sounds like diffusion/dissolution of the outlining of the changes, or superimposition of different changes. I have never heard (to my knowledge, of course) anyone superimpose a clearly defined B section of a tune onto an A section on purpose. I can't see what the point of that would be, because it communicates "I'm in a different part of the form than you are" rather than "hey, let's take this out, shall we?" All IMHO, YMMV, EEMD, YMWCB, etc. of course.

Personally, I dissolve changes often and on purpose when I feel that it's musically appropriate, and so did JG. I've never heard him do anything quite like this before.
 
#144
damonsmith said:
Look, I am not arguing that he didn't get lost, I am only arguing that it isn't the only possibility.
Because it is linear, it is not as clearly defined as we'd like it to be. If it was block chords we'd have a different reality.
Click to expand...

No it wouldn't. This bass line is as clearly defined as anything chordal would be. Denying that would be denying JG can play traditional changes.
 
#146
damonsmith said:
Look, I am not arguing that he didn't get lost, I am only arguing that it isn't the only possibility.
Because it is linear, it is not as clearly defined as we'd like it to be. If it was block chords we'd have a different reality.
Click to expand...

Are you now claiming that because it is "linear", that the vibes is playing material that could be heard as something other than "All The Things You Are"?. "Block Chords" are not necessary to confirm the harmonic structure he's exploring. It is very "clearly defined", for me.

thanks for your time.
 
#147
damonsmith said:
Like the way you are denying he couldn't hear he was lost for a solid minute?
Click to expand...

I don't remember saying anything of the kind. I do know that when I get lost like that, I assume it's not me who messed up. But when I hear everyone else in a different place and not adjusting, which can take a while, I do the sensible thing and make the musical choice to go with them. I imagine that JG, who I think is a far better bass player than I'll ever hope to be, would make a similar choice.
 
#152
damonsmith said:
Look, I am not arguing that he didn't get lost, I am only arguing that it isn't the only possibility.
Because it is linear, it is not as clearly defined as we'd like it to be. If it was block chords we'd have a different reality.
Click to expand...

Well of COURSE anything is possible. But I'm talking likelihood here. And "lost in the form" is BY FAR the most likely explanation.
 
#155
Firstly, I have a straight "swing" mindset... I love Oscar Peterson, Billy Taylor and so on. So take this into consideration before issuing any responses to this.

I actually took lessons from Jimmy Garrison (either two or three of them) at his apartment on the upper west side back in the early 70's. I was a rock Fender "P" player... I had no idea who he was... he was advertising in the Village Voice, I called, I met with him, and I was (much to my regret) oblivious to what he was about. He never mentioned Coltrane etc:

The one thing I very distinctly remember is his reference to not being too hung up on the "mechanics" of specific notes... any note, (if you look hard enough ?) can actually be related as some kind of extension to about any chord progression.

I never forgot that... I never embraced it because of my personal musical preferences... but I remember the conversation clearly.

In some ways it's a shame I was still a rocker, I wish I could have done it all over again.

Art Fahie
Maine
 
#156
artfahie said:
Firstly, I have a straight "swing" mindset... I love Oscar Peterson, Billy Taylor and so on. So take this into consideration before issuing any responses to this.

I actually took lessons from Jimmy Garrison (either two or three of them) at his apartment on the upper west side back in the early 70's. I was a rock Fender "P" player... I had no idea who he was... he was advertising in the Village Voice, I called, I met with him, and I was (much to my regret) oblivious to what he was about. He never mentioned Coltrane etc:

The one thing I very distinctly remember is his reference to not being too hung up on the "mechanics" of specific notes... any note, (if you look hard enough ?) can actually be related as some kind of extension to about any chord progression.

I never forgot that... I never embraced it because of my personal musical preferences... but I remember the conversation clearly.

In some ways it's a shame I was still a rocker, I wish I could have done it all over again.

Art Fahie
Maine
Click to expand...

True, but I guess he was talking about single notes in relation to chords. But the thing we're talking about is a melodic bass line based on a harmonic progression.

Stil, great to hear from a former student of Jimmy Garrison.
 
#157
I think both camps in this discussion have been vindicated of any lack of depth in listening skill......both have legit points of view imho. Very interesting to read up to a point.

Seems that Jimmy's legacy is being tossed around like a dead kitten by a cupla' pit bulls at this point though.

It's just a friggin' tape from a pick up bar gig, guys.......why not focus on the mistakes or any artistic statements the other two guys on the gig made as well......there are LOTS of them.

Such is the price of fame, I suppose
 
#158
MR PC said:
It's just a friggin' tape from a pick up bar gig, guys.......why not focus on the mistakes or any artistic statements the other two guys on the gig made as well......there are LOTS of them.
Click to expand...

If the other two guys were bassists, they would probably would have done that. :D
 

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