JJ Helms Basses

[vene-nemesis]

This is ridiculous. I've met Jacob Marchlewski, and while I don't want to speak for him, I doubt he'd have anything negative to say about the JJ Helms design. As a designer and bass builder the only similartiy I see outside of the fact that both are single cut designs and the accent stripe is the little point on the upper horn. Is that what the argument is about? I recently had a friendly exchange with Pete Skjold over a design of mine that turned out looking similar to one of his designs. I'll swear up and down, all day long that my design is an original idea I came up with on my own and I didn't steal or borrow it from anyone. I had never seen the Skjold design until months after I finished mine. Still, there's no animosity between him and me. He invited me to the Dallas GTG. Because someone's design looks like somebody else's design doesn't mean it's stolen. It's extremely difficult to come up with a completely original design. If similarity is a bad thing than we might as well kill music. It shouldn't be hard to understand that most modern builders probably draw from the same influences. It should not be surprising that similarities are going to happen.

I havent read nor wrote anything related to the word stolen, what i did was to point out a possibility, Helms getting sued, because to me some of those basses shape had a predecessor on the market and the company/luthier who created it might note how similar they are and get their law logistical team into work.

 

[budman]

I havent read nor wrote anything related to the word stolen, what i did was to point out a possibility, Helms getting sued, because to me some of those basses shape had a predecessor on the market and the company/luthier who created it might note how similar they are and get their law logistical team into work.

I wasn't address you specifically, vene-nemesis. SharkB8 accused JJ of "reusing" the design of his bass without asking permission and without ever trying to find out if JJ's design was original or not. He must have assumed JJ stole it. As far getting sued...yeah, and Harley Davidson will probably sue Kawasaki, Yamaha and Honda for copying their cruiser design too.

Do you think Gibson will come after me for building this bass (per the cusomer's request)?
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...or Fender for building this one (my personal bass)?
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or Hofner (or Gibson) for building this one?
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[BurningSkies]

...or Fender for building this one (my personal bass)?
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On a side note, THAT is one crazy-bad-sweet lookin' P/J vintage/modern lookin bass.

I can understand why this is your bass.

You should have a guy posting earlier in the thread to warn us that that's coming up, because it could seriously stop a heart without proper warning.

 

[SharkB8]

..SharkB8 accused JJ of "reusing" the design of his bass without asking permission and without ever trying to find out if JJ's design was original or not. He must have assumed JJ stole it.

As usual, I'm late. Wow, looking back through the last page, things got a little terse, so maybe I'm glad that I didn't show up earlier. I'm glad things chilled out a little.

Anyway, I used the term "reusing", never did I say "stole". I have no idea where the original design came from, as it is a hybrid of many styles, so I wouldn't say "stole". I have researched most bass builders over MANY years. G**tars as well. I've been playing for 25 years and have had numerous custom instruments from all over the globe. The only time I've seen the design on my bass (or even close), was Marchlewski's basses, of which, his cube bass (on which my design was based), was YEARS old. I don't know exactly how old, I've never asked. But that design (also in Wolfe's bass)has been around on this and other forums for years. It's not been a secret or hidden, and didn't just come from left field. Last time I checked, the Marchlewski status thread is 12,000 hits, and Wolfe's threads always get thousands, so to the dude who said he's never heard of Marchlewski:

A. He's new and has only come on in the last couple days
B. He doesn't read anything other than what he's specifically looking for

I found Marchlewski years ago through this site....nuff said on that.

My comment was, that it is reasonable and customary to inquire (ask, email, phone, whatever) if you want to use any portion of someone's design. If you don't know what that design (or some variant) is out there then fine. But don't call people out when they point out that fact.

I didn't assume anything, I simply pointed out that I've never heard anyone inquire on the origins of the JJ design, and apparently I'm not the only one who has seem the similarities. Before you think that I'm ripping on JJ Helms basses, think again. I think that a little research, like many other builders here who post their design thoughts and get feedback, would be good, but time is money and everyone needs to make a living, so more power to him. I hope one day to play a JJ Helms bass, but, my 'lewski keeps me company well enough that I'm not searching anymore.

And to full_bleed, yes it's 1st about sound. But I personally like to play nice basses, not some ratty POS. If it's a super sounding ratty POS, fine, but I get phenomenal sound from a bass that (IMHO) looks great too, so that's what I'll choose. I respect and admire the fine craftmanship involved, a wood nut and I enjoy the journey of a watching a custom made instrument come to life.

So to Mr. Helms, rock on man, keep building, and hopefully things go well for you. Ditto to Bud and any other luthiers perusing this thread. I hope to try them all one day.

 

[bassturtle]

You're all wrong. Every bass shape idea was mine first. You all owe me money. Pay up.

 

[fat-J]

Hey vene-nemesis, ever notice that there's about a bazillion guys out there doing something very "similar" to good ol Leo Fender's designs? I think there's one very important element you're overlooking when you're talking about people suing each other. I'm guessing the idea was planted in your head from hearing about some of those old Fender lawsuit basses, I don't claim to know the whole story on those lawsuits but in those cases we're talking about companies like Ibanez that were mass producing exact copies of Fenders product and selling them cheaper. The thing is that alot of those basses were and are considered better than the real thing and Fender was loosing business over it in a pretty big way. I don't really see that being remotely the case here. Pretty much all the builders I've met personally are really cool guys, that I would assume, much like myself, would rather be building basses than putting together lawsuits. I personally can hardly even stand the thought of going to traffic court over a speeding ticket. Let's say Greg Curbow got really pissed that he saw his design on my site and decided to sue me over it. What would he sue me for? the money I made off that one bass? That bass, despite it's shape isn't a Curbow by any means Much less a Cort but I always did kinda like the shape, and I don't think anyone at Cort or Greg himself is worried about me digging into their business. I don't know their numbers but they probably make more of those basses in a day than I could in a month. As far as smaller builders go, we're pretty much all in the same boat working our butts off building basses to pay the bills, it's not the kind of thing you go into to make a million bucks,I think we all pretty much do it because it's what we love to do. We're not just a bunch of corporate suits running around looking for someone to sue. That would kinda take the fun out of the whole thing.

 

[vene-nemesis]

Hey vene-nemesis, ever notice that there's about a bazillion guys out there doing something very "similar" to good ol Leo Fender's designs? I think there's one very important element you're overlooking when you're talking about people suing each other. I'm guessing the idea was planted in your head from hearing about some of those old Fender lawsuit basses, I don't claim to know the whole story on those lawsuits but in those cases we're talking about companies like Ibanez that were mass producing exact copies of Fenders product and selling them cheaper. The thing is that alot of those basses were and are considered better than the real thing and Fender was loosing business over it in a pretty big way. I don't really see that being remotely the case here. Pretty much all the builders I've met personally are really cool guys, that I would assume, much like myself, would rather be building basses than putting together lawsuits. I personally can hardly even stand the thought of going to traffic court over a speeding ticket. Let's say Greg Curbow got really pissed that he saw his design on my site and decided to sue me over it. What would he sue me for? the money I made off that one bass? That bass, despite it's shape isn't a Curbow by any means Much less a Cort but I always did kinda like the shape, and I don't think anyone at Cort or Greg himself is worried about me digging into their business. I don't know their numbers but they probably make more of those basses in a day than I could in a month. As far as smaller builders go, we're pretty much all in the same boat working our butts off building basses to pay the bills, it's not the kind of thing you go into to make a million bucks,I think we all pretty much do it because it's what we love to do. We're not just a bunch of corporate suits running around looking for someone to sue. That would kinda take the fun out of the whole thing.

I wont read you whole post ATM, but i do know that fender couldnt get the patent on his body shapes, but he did got it on the headstock as a trademark. Spector sued warwick for copying their Ned Steinberger desing, wich isnt even the exact copy cos the streamer IMO has differences vs his american twin-in-law. Yet agian ill re-write the word might, i didnt say you were going to be sued instead i said you might get sued. And im pretty much sure that u have already realized that life is hard for all of us and that it is not funny to get out of the buissness by someone that does your same job at a lower price.

 

[Akito]

I've been keeping up with this thread for the last few days, and I think some of the earlier terseness may have resulted because of the limitations of posting on a forum. I think if this had been a conversation in person, the context and clearer meanings of a lot of the statements would have kept every thing even keeled. It's almost impossible to really, clearly make your point on a message board, especially when discussing potentially sensitive material, without leaving yourself open to misinterpretation etc. I own a Marchlewski and Jake and Jon are two of the easiest going guys you'll meet. I asked Jon if I could have a copy made of one of his designs, and not only did he graciously agree, but he drew it up for me in photoshop! In any case, I think a lot of flame wars you see on message boards (the ones not incited by trolls) happen because of miscommunication because of the limitations of the medium. I like all of the bass designs in this thread btw!

 

[Wolfehollow]

Exactly Akito... I was never trying to say anything negative... he asked...

I'd be interested in seeing any pics of designs you think I might have "borrowed"

 

[full_bleed]

I'm not sure what you're saying man. I never said you couldn't get a good sound out of a nice looking bass. I definately never said jj makes ugly basses. I also never said that the biggest POS bass is the best thing in the world. I said it's about looks or it's about sound. In other words you can worry about playing the original carvin, curbow, and all those other basses that were compared just for the looks and prestidge of it, which may or may not have great tone to you... or you could play one like jj builds on request for his customers that he stated he tries to make for better playability. Most T-40 look like POS's but they got nice tone. Musicman Stingray I think is very attractive but to me it sounds like a POS. (sorry MM lovers!) My P bass looks like crap and sounds the part and then my warwick thumb looks beautiful and sounds like a pack of wild dogs(a good thing). I hope this helps you understand better what I was saying.

 

[budman]

Anyway, I used the term "reusing", never did I say "stole". I have no idea where the original design came from, as it is a hybrid of many styles, so I wouldn't say "stole". I have researched most bass builders over MANY years. G**tars as well. I've been playing for 25 years and have had numerous custom instruments from all over the globe. The only time I've seen the design on my bass (or even close), was Marchlewski's basses, of which, his cube bass (on which my design was based), was YEARS old. I don't know exactly how old, I've never asked. But that design (also in Wolfe's bass)has been around on this and other forums for years. It's not been a secret or hidden, and didn't just come from left field. Last time I checked, the Marchlewski status thread is 12,000 hits, and Wolfe's threads always get thousands, so to the dude who said he's never heard of Marchlewski:

A. He's new and has only come on in the last couple days
B. He doesn't read anything other than what he's specifically looking for


I found Marchlewski years ago through this site....nuff said on that.

Well if you don't know where the original design came from then how can you accuse someone of "reusing" a design? FYI, I was at the Bass Summit in AL where the Marchlewski cube bass was debuted in August of 2003. Until I started coming around TB last October I was unaware of Jacob's popularity. Contrary to popular belief and as fine as Talkbass is it isn't the end all and be all of the online bass world. It doesn't seem fair that just because a guy hasn't been hanging around TB for years and isn't familiar with every builder's designs that he be labeled a "reuser" because of one little similarity point.

My comment was, that it is reasonable and customary to inquire (ask, email, phone, whatever) if you want to use any portion of someone's design. If you don't know what that design (or some variant) is out there then fine. But don't call people out when they point out that fact..

JJ stated quite planely that the design is his own. Is he supposed to get on the phone and call every builder in the known world before he executes a new design, even a guy he's never heard of?

I didn't assume anything, I simply pointed out that I've never heard anyone inquire on the origins of the JJ design, and apparently I'm not the only one who has seem the similarities. Before you think that I'm ripping on JJ Helms basses, think again. I think that a little research, like many other builders here who post their design thoughts and get feedback, would be good, but time is money and everyone needs to make a living, so more power to him. I hope one day to play a JJ Helms bass, but, my 'lewski keeps me company well enough that I'm not searching anymore...

Excuse me, sir, but you did more than point out a similarity. As builder I have posted some of my designs here before I've built them, but with great trepidation, out of fear that someone would steal them.

So to Mr. Helms, rock on man, keep building, and hopefully things go well for you. Ditto to Bud and any other luthiers perusing this thread. I hope to try them all one day.

Thank you!

 

[Pete skjold]

YOU GUYS ARE ALL A BUNCH OF RIP-OFFS !!! I HATE U I HATE U I HATE U .................



Just thought I would share something with you guys , I acually have a design that looks alot like the one you guys showed with the single cut with the point to it I didn't set out to steal this either and I haven't put it out yet since I have been refining it . One thing about designing these days is we are bombarded with designs and images and alot of it starts many of us down a certain path , case in point the single cut design !! so it is almost impossible to not be influenced by trends . Just like music itself , you can't walk away from your influences and your can't be totally original either . You want to be original ? Design an instrument that doesn't even exist yet ..We are all hanging in Loe's house , lets enjoy the time we have here


Pete

 

[budman]

On a side note, THAT is one crazy-bad-sweet lookin' P/J vintage/modern lookin bass.

I can understand why this is your bass.

You should have a guy posting earlier in the thread to warn us that that's coming up, because it could seriously stop a heart without proper warning.

Thanks. This will be the only "Fender" I ever build, unless someone wants to pay me gobs of money of course.

 

[BurningSkies]

Thanks. This will be the only "Fender" I ever build, unless someone wants to pay me gobs of money of course.

I understand. It's funny, I haven't really been into traditional fender style stuff for a while, and I've never been a fan of the original P-bass style, but I like that one. I like that it's a sythesis of lots of aspects of similar yet different instruments.

 

[socasaul]

I havent read nor wrote anything related to the word stolen, what i did was to point out a possibility, Helms getting sued, because to me some of those basses shape had a predecessor on the market and the company/luthier who created it might note how similar they are and get their law logistical team into work.[/QUOTE



**Insult removed by Moderator** How can ANYONE ger sued for building an instrument that shows some similarity to another. when neither are patented designs.. You need to grow up a little before speeeeeeeeuuuuuuuuwing your opinions. Have a great eventing!

 

[SharkB8]

Well if you don't know where the original design came from then how can you accuse someone of "reusing" a design? FYI, I was at the Bass Summit in AL where the Marchlewski cube bass was debuted in August of 2003. Until I started coming around TB last October I was unaware of Jacob's popularity. Contrary to popular belief and as fine as Talkbass is it isn't the end all and be all of the online bass world. It doesn't seem fair that just because a guy hasn't been hanging around TB for years and isn't familiar with every builder's designs that he be labeled a "reuser" because of one little similarity point.

Not sure what burr is in your saddle, but I'll play along (for the moment). I do not know the exact origins of my bass design, but I did research for about 5 years before I bought this bass. I had NEVER seen one like it. I was told it was original, and, only after I did extensive research, did I believe that to be true. Furthermore, I didn't ACCUSE anyone of anything. I was simply pointing out what is customary when dealing with designs, whether right or wrong, this is how it's done b/t most reasonable people. That's fine he hasn't been around TB, and he doesn't have to be familiar with every builder's designs, although that statement just seems to be a little dramatic and defensive, for whatever reason.

JJ stated quite planely that the design is his own. Is he supposed to get on the phone and call every builder in the known world before he executes a new design, even a guy he's never heard of?

It's fine that he says it's his own. Paul Reed Smith said the McCarty was their own until they got the pant sued off 'em and had to pull them from the shelves for a whole lot of reasons. There are similarities (that's ALL that was being pointed out). No one would reasonably expect him to "call every builder in the known world", and again I think that's a little dramatic.

Excuse me, sir, but you did more than point out a similarity. As builder I have posted some of my designs here before I've built them, but with great trepidation, out of fear that someone would steal them.

How did I do more? Did I haul off and flame the world and call him a rip off artist? No, I (as others) pointed out, what I felt (notice the term I) was the "reuse" of a portion of the design. I do have the right to voice my opinion. It didn't harm me in any way, as far as I know it didn't harm Marchlewski, nor anyone else. And if JJ is making a living (as I pointed out in my post) more power to him. It's hard to eek out a living building instruments, but you should also CYA when it comes to a business venture. If you simply go in with the mindset that no one is going to call you out just because you are a small fish, it probably is not going to fly. Tech companies have been suing people (no matter how small) for years, for things like "reuse" or "likliness". Intellectual property means a lot in some circles, and the musical instrument world is catching up. As corporations merge, and they become more powerful, you are going to start to see a lot of "cease and desist" orders going around.


This is my last word though....
Maybe I suffered from not being clear enough in my post, I didn't think it would incite such angst. I do sincerely hope that JJ Helms and you Lecompte make a wonderful living building the best instruments you can....

 

[Akito]

Now everybody is being too plain spoken! Let's go back to being vague!

 

[Akito]

To tell you the truth, if I had the money I would probably be trying to get all of you guys to build a bass for me. Wouldn't it be cool to have several luthiers make the same bass and then see how they turn out?

 

[fat-J]

Ok, everybody read that? sharkB8 gets the last word. I guess I can see why he seems to have such a personal tie to this subject considering he spent 5 years of his life doing research on whatever

Anyway, thanks to both Bud and Pete especially for jumping in taking some of the heat off me and helping to reinforce some of my points (even if it wasn't intentional), but I think some people just aren't getting the point. It's nice to know there's at least a few out there that get what I'm saying and you know who you are. Everyone else seems to be back tracking and making excuses for some kind of contagious form of verbal diarhea. If you can't hold it, please wipe after speaking. Is that the basic idea?

 

[fat-J]

Hey Akito, you seem way too well mannered and reasonable for this thread. How'd you end up here?