Double Bass Joel Quarrington technique

[eerbrev]

I don`t know exactly but JQ`s bass looks like it`s regular 3/4 mensure. If I remember correctly, eerbrev has had the change to play that bass, maybe he could chime in on this one?

Joel's got a whole bunch of basses, in a whole bunch of Scale lengths. The last I had spoken with him, he was using a large English bass occasionally (if not often) in orchestras. If I recall correctly, he had said it was 43"? I also know that Chris Symer (who hangs around here) uses a 43" scale length bass and tunes in 5ths. I've also seen Joel play a dozen different basses at Orford.

The Maggini in question, however, I don't know the scale length of. The bass itself is small, but it had a new neck put on it at some point in the last 150 years, so it's got a pretty normal scale length. It makes it a little weird to play (the neck connects at like, E, or something), but it works just fine. Beautiful sounding instrument when played by the right person.

One of the big goals for Joel's Left hand technique is to make scale length mostly irrelevant. One of the "applications" of his left hand technique; from the Intro to his Daily Studies:

"4. Seamless, accurate and effortless shifting; the movement of the rotation is also the movement from the wrist that gives a perfect shifting technique. The movement is the same if it is a whole tone or an octave; the rotation allows for a landing on the note and an immediate restoration of balance. The notion of "trying to find a note" doesn't exist. It is more like jumping from rock to rock on a beach. For this reason, switching instruments with little or no adjustment period becomes the norm."

Emphasis mine. Basically, the idea is that because your left hand is flexible, and you don't try to hold down a "position", then you can move however you want, whenever you want. It's a combination of using a flexible left hand, and listening.

(This is me talking, not Joel) - How do you know where to put your finger? Listen, and practice. Then, when you've practiced, you know where the note is though Proprioception. IMO hand frames are mostly useless once you get past the beginner stage of learning intervals, because the hand frame for each whole tone is different as you go up the scale, and is different depending on what key you're in. B-C# in A major is different that B-C# in D major.

Hopefully this helps and doesn't derail conversation.

 

[MikeCanada]

Tomoya Aomori does play on and advocate for a shorter string length. I believe 38" is what he is playing currently, and what he recommends. From what I have seen in his videos, his technique is more a hybrid of double bass and "cello but bigger" where he seems to be stretching to reach a minor third under the hand. This is why he strongly recommends a string length of <40" but stipulates if you have large hands with a large reach, you could play something bigger. It is also worth noting that while he is absolutely capable of playing orchestral repertoire and he even has a video where he demonstrates the Ein Heldenleben excerpts with a few different fingering options, the majority of his work is solo or small chamber ensemble playing, where he takes advantage of the upper register of his high e string. As we know from any tuning, the reach gets smaller in the upper register. Tomoya is a fantastic player from the videos I have seen, and although he plays a "5bass" (a 5 string in 5ths by Bob Spear based off of the Carleen Hutchins New Violin Family instruments) it is great to see a bassist exploring and expanding the role of the instrument outside of the orchestra regardless to whether or not his instrument is seen as conventional.

Joel, as mentioned uses whatever string length he has thrown at him. I have had the opportunity to sit in on a few master classes and camps with Joel, and he will pick up any bass in the room and make it sound like him regardless of string length or tuning. As mentioned his Maggini had a new neck put on it at some point in order to make the string length longer, and I believe it is around 39-40". It is close to an F# neck in 5ths, so an E in 4ths, and really atypical in a few different ways. His Inokuchi bass was heavily influenced by the Maggini and has similar dimensions. The Mario Lamarre was built at 42" if I remember correctly, although the dimensions are no longer on Lamarre's website. As eerbrev quoted from his book and mentioned from working with Joel, string length has become largely irrelevant to him.

I personally play on a 41.5" string length. The bass I am currently using was purchased in 4ths with the intention of playing it in 4ths and then I transitioned to 5ths. I have quite small hands and can comfortably play on 41.5" but I do not plan on going any longer if and when I find a new instrument. 41-42" seems to be relatively standard in North America and while there are some people that suggest a low C or B string needs 42+" to work properly in 5ths or with a 5 string, the individual instrument, setup, string selection, and technique are equal if not more important factors to consider.

You will find that they are 5ths players on a variety of string lengths who have a variety of personal preferences, much the same as you will see small guys like Thomas Martin playing huge instruments, and huge players playing relatively smaller ones.

 

[Reiska]

Joel's got a whole bunch of basses, in a whole bunch of Scale lengths. The last I had spoken with him, he was using a large English bass occasionally (if not often) in orchestras. If I recall correctly, he had said it was 43"? I also know that Chris Symer (who hangs around here) uses a 43" scale length bass and tunes in 5ths. I've also seen Joel play a dozen different basses at Orford.

The Maggini in question, however, I don't know the scale length of. The bass itself is small, but it had a new neck put on it at some point in the last 150 years, so it's got a pretty normal scale length. It makes it a little weird to play (the neck connects at like, E, or something), but it works just fine. Beautiful sounding instrument when played by the right person.

One of the big goals for Joel's Left hand technique is to make scale length mostly irrelevant. One of the "applications" of his left hand technique; from the Intro to his Daily Studies:

"4. Seamless, accurate and effortless shifting; the movement of the rotation is also the movement from the wrist that gives a perfect shifting technique. The movement is the same if it is a whole tone or an octave; the rotation allows for a landing on the note and an immediate restoration of balance. The notion of "trying to find a note" doesn't exist. It is more like jumping from rock to rock on a beach. For this reason, switching instruments with little or no adjustment period becomes the norm."

Emphasis mine. Basically, the idea is that because your left hand is flexible, and you don't try to hold down a "position", then you can move however you want, whenever you want. It's a combination of using a flexible left hand, and listening.

(This is me talking, not Joel) - How do you know where to put your finger? Listen, and practice. Then, when you've practiced, you know where the note is though Proprioception. IMO hand frames are mostly useless once you get past the beginner stage of learning intervals, because the hand frame for each whole tone is different as you go up the scale, and is different depending on what key you're in. B-C# in A major is different that B-C# in D major.

Hopefully this helps and doesn't derail conversation.

The one on uhmmm... the video.... Thanks eerbrev!

And MikeCanada!

 

[eerbrev]

The one on uhmmm... the video.... Thanks eerbrev!

And MikeCanada!

The one in the video's probably his Maggini. That's what he does most solo stuff on.

 

[Reiska]

I got a new bass just couple of months ago, a 3/4 bass with 105cm string lenght. Now I have found myself dreaming of a smaller one, since I`m back in 5ths tuning and am travelling on public transportation a lot. I had a 1/2 -size bass as a backup, which a friend borrowed, and it was very comfortable to play in every way. Every point of wiew that Tomoya Aomori hails about shorter mensure I find very true: Easier to play pizzicato at the end of the fingerboard and to place the bow where you want it to be, with the nut beeing at your sight. + Lower tension overall and smaller distances for the left hand to travel. All of that makes very much sense in every way, why should bass playing be harder than it actually can be? Contemporary luthiers ( + the string manufacturers ) are able to make instruments that are just as great sounding and loud, and whatever, than the robust " traditional " sized instruments, with significantly shorter string lenght and relaxed feel. Why THIS isn`t the industry standard?

Then I got a lesson from a great teacher and musician, who is only visiting shortly here in his home country and who was dependend on borrowed instruments. I asked what`s the string lenght of the marvellous bass he had and he didn`t know and he didn`t care. I know he was using several basses here for different situations, but string lenght wasn`t any issue. I kinda feel about the size very differently now, no need for smaller one since my bass sounds good. I`m trying very hard to sound good too.

EDIT: For everyone to know, Tomoya Aomori is a freakin` master of double bass and percussion both. And seems to be a wonderful person and teacher as well.

EDIT: And yes, I know that these quality short scale instruments are larger in body proportions than 1/2 -size basses in general.

 

[mrmarbles]

MikeCanada, eerbrev, Reiska, thank you for your comments - very insightful.

I am in my fifties now and have played professionally for 25 years (10 in the Warsaw Phil, and now 15 in a large North American orchestra). I have met Mr. Quarrington - he is a very nice man and talented musician.

I like this tuning and think it works especially well in a chamber setting, especially so you can lock in with the cello.

However, what I find very concerning is that while Mr. Ayamori is an advocate of this 5 string fifths tuned bass with a 38" string length he seems to also be advising his students to use this method. I am concerned by this. It is almost impossible today for a young person to get into a professional orchestra and if you are a teacher you have a responsibility to provide your students with a realistic outlook on what it takes to get into an orchestra. That being said, I simply cannot see a major orchestra hiring a player that sounds like the 5bass. It is beautiful but is simply not an orchestral basses sound anymore. If we are going to actually encourage young people to pursue orchestral positions do you not think we have a responsibility to be honest with them regarding what tuning method and sound is going to cut it? I'm sure Mr Quarrington, being so talented could get into any orchestra using any tuning or bass size, but not all of us are virtuosos, and students are so impressionable.

If when someone gets a job and is tenured and they want to get a very small instrument or use a different tuning method then hats off to them but I simply do not see any orchestra right now hiring anyone that is using the 5bass.

Bass in fourths is very hard. Bass in fifths is unbelievably hard. There is a reason why some of us are virtuosi

 

[MikeCanada]

MikeCanada, eerbrev, Reiska, thank you for your comments - very insightful.

I am in my fifties now and have played professionally for 25 years (10 in the Warsaw Phil, and now 15 in a large North American orchestra). I have met Mr. Quarrington - he is a very nice man and talented musician.

I like this tuning and think it works especially well in a chamber setting, especially so you can lock in with the cello.

However, what I find very concerning is that while Mr. Ayamori is an advocate of this 5 string fifths tuned bass with a 38" string length he seems to also be advising his students to use this method. I am concerned by this. It is almost impossible today for a young person to get into a professional orchestra and if you are a teacher you have a responsibility to provide your students with a realistic outlook on what it takes to get into an orchestra. That being said, I simply cannot see a major orchestra hiring a player that sounds like the 5bass. It is beautiful but is simply not an orchestral basses sound anymore. If we are going to actually encourage young people to pursue orchestral positions do you not think we have a responsibility to be honest with them regarding what tuning method and sound is going to cut it? I'm sure Mr Quarrington, being so talented could get into any orchestra using any tuning or bass size, but not all of us are virtuosos, and students are so impressionable.

If when someone gets a job and is tenured and they want to get a very small instrument or use a different tuning method then hats off to them but I simply do not see any orchestra right now hiring anyone that is using the 5bass.

Bass in fourths is very hard. Bass in fifths is unbelievably hard. There is a reason why some of us are virtuosi

This is being quoted because a similar comment disappeared earlier.

As someone who switched to 5ths during my performance degree, switching is rarely encouraged. Joel strongly discouraged me from switching to 5ths if I planned on pursuing an orchestral career. He was very clear that there are a lot of bassists and orchestras that do not accept it, and that it would be creating an extra barrier to overcome. Any other 5ths player I have encountered understands this as well, and most if not all of them that teach will teach in 4ths and encourage their students to think long and hard before making the switch. If they do make that decision most will support it, but I have yet to meet a 5ths player that thinks getting a professional orchestra gig in 5ths is easy.

I have not met or studied with Tomoya Aomori, but I do not believe he is naive or ill intentioned enough to suggest to his students that it's a walk in the park. Like many other 5ths players he sees the benefits of the tuning and would like his students to see them as well. If he has students that are intending to pursue a professional orchestra career and he is pushing them into 5ths then he could be doing them a disservice, but I highly doubt that is the case.

Most conservatories, universities/colleges, and private studios are churning out semi-professional and serious amateur players which I would define as players who are playing in smaller regional/community orchestras, chamber ensembles, or other non-major symphony settings. I would consider myself in that category, and being in 5ths has not been a barrier. Many of these orchestras have a mix of abilities and techniques, French and German bows, low notes or not, and as long as you are playing at or above the level of the ensemble your tuning system is irrelevant. Conductors are happy to have low notes and someone who can play well. Some principals have reservations when I have been hired as a section player, but if you are in time, in tune, and blend, they come around very quickly. With chamber ensembles or any setting where you are the only bass, other musicians do not care in the slightest provided you can play. Many of them don't know about different tunings, have seen extensions/machines etc. but don't understand how they work, and don't care about bassist politics about French or German bow or anything else. If you aren't pulling your weight or your sound doesn't work with the ensemble, that is far more of a concern.

The big roadblock to 5ths in a professional setting is usually concerns about tradition, conformity/it looking out of place, and misconceptions/fears about the sound of the instrument. Tradition is a joke when it comes to double bass. The instrument itself has never been standardized and comes in many shapes and sizes much like the viola. It has had 3-6 strings tuned in 3rds, 4ths, 5ths, and combinations of those historically, and many composers like Berlioz wanted sections with 3, 4, and 5 string basses in 4ths and 5ths because they saw the benefits offered by the different instruments. Steel strings are relatively new, capo'ed extensions have become the preferred method of reaching low notes in North America where machines were preferred recently, and there are a whole host of other changes that are becoming common place like the Laborie endpin that were unheard of a generation ago. If you consider all of those things, the current double bass "tradition" is potentially 50 years old. Conformity/it doesn't look like everything else is what kept French and German bows in separate orchestras, but that has been changing steadily in recent years as well.

As for the 5ths/5bass sound, it honestly surprises me how many bassists have fallen for it. Joel, Tomoya, and any other 5ths player use a sound appropriate for the music they are making. Most people have heard these players as soloists either with orchestras, in a recital setting with a piano, or in Tomoya's case playing non-orchestral/traditional chamber music. Bassists in 4ths in those situations often use a sound palate much different than they would with an orchestra, and no one assumes if they play in a section they are going to sound the same as when they are playing a concerto. Why does everyone make that assumption about 5ths?

With the growing number of strings available for 5ths, good technique, and smart choices it is possible to get just about any sound out of a bass in 5ths. I know jazz players that use gut strings and have that old school thump, orchestral players who are using Eudoxas, Evahs, Bel Cantos, or dead Spirocores and getting really dark sounds out of their instruments as well. I have yet to have a problem blending with a section, and I use Spiros and Permanents on my instrument. The high A string can be a bit bright if you don't respect it, but there are plenty of twangy high G's out there too.

I honestly believe that the majority of the resistance to 5ths/5bass is born out of ignorance and if the bassists/orchestras who are against it had the opportunity to see and hear it in action, they would come to the same conclusion that they are coming to with French and German bow: it really isn't a big deal. We are all still playing bass and if there is a problem with the sound/style of what you are hearing, it has much more to do with the technique and choices of the player than the tuning they are using.

 

[eerbrev]

I think it's also important to point out Joel's had lots of students who never changed into 5ths. Some of them even have gigs! Now, they got where they are by the sweat of their own brow, but it's good evidence to show that his left hand technique (the main focus of this thread, originally, i might remind everyone) works regardless of tuning.

 

[mrmarbles]

Is there a tutorial or method book?

 

[Chris Symer]

As Mike mentioned above, it is a common misconception about fifths tuning that a bass will have a specific "fifths sound" when tuned that way. The tonal palette from player to player and bass to bass is just as broad in fifths as it is in fourths, and just as every bass tuned in fourths sounds different than every other bass tuned in fourths, every bass in fifths is different than all the others in fifths as well. Unfortunately we don't have a comparatively large group of fifths tuners out there for everyone to hear and experience that for themselves. Usually when other bass players are at my gigs they get hung up on it "looking weird" because the fingering is different, but like the sound. Many others are completely unaware that anything is different until I tell them.

As for scale length, yes, my bass is 43" and has been in fifths for the past 15 years. Although I am getting older and lazier and have been thinking about looking for a smaller bass with something closer to 40" or 41", I don't find the long string length of my bass really prohibitive in any way. I began in fourths in the late 70's and studied a traditional Simandl approach, but at some point realized that it is the left hand that moves and the notes that stay in one place, which is exactly the same in fourths and fifths (even though their names are changed, there are notes in all the same spots on the fingerboard). It really helped my brain to learn fifths when I stopped thinking of it as somehow "hard" to do. That's the point where I have to strongly disagree with mrmarbles otherwise very sensible earlier post. The bass in fifths is in no way "unbelievably hard". Playing wise it is no harder than tuning in fourths. Some things are easier in fifths, some are easier in fourths, but in my experience it ends up pretty much the same task. The only real disadvantage with playing fifths instead of fourths seems to be mostly political...... And the stupid jokes.

 

[mrmarbles]

Hi Chris,

Let me re-phrase my comment on the bass in fifths being extremely hard. There are a few considerations:

1. Strings - To this day I don't think there is really a completely suitable and affordable option from string makers for the bass tuned this way. Sure, one could order a custom made set but a lot of musicians don't want to spend +$700 on strings for a new tuning method which they may abandon. Obligato (very meh sounding low C and G), Spirocore (sounds good pizz, okay under the bow, still think it's pretty abrasive in fourths or fifths), Velvet (weird string all around). There are probably others but until Pirastro makes a serious set in fifths like Flexocore it's probably going to take time for more people to jump on board. Using an F# tuned up to G sounds bad on 90% of basses IMO, and the solo gauge A makes the instrument sound quite thin and bright. I disagree that there is not a typical "fifths sound". Since a lot of players are using the solo gauge A and I've even seen a bridge without wings, it often creates a very "piercing" tone - this is why some principals say it does not "blend". I disagree with that notion, as "blending" to me means everyone simply playing in tune and in time, but something should be said about the set-up of the instrument and this preference for a very direct, bright, and unfortunately shrill tone.

2. The left-hand technique used in fifths must be much more refined than the standard "Simandl hand". Teaching someone from scratch how to pivot or use the crab technique before learning the Simandl hand is not a good idea in my opinion. Some of us old timers have gotten our jobs in the late 60's or 70's when the transition from gut to steel was occurring in orchestras. The Simandl hand was really a suitable method for playing on gut, and that's why Mr. Bille states that there is too much shifting for the bass in fifths. We can dispute his comment all we want but we must understand that he was playing on bare-gut strings - it is not easy to play like we do today using the tools they had 100 years. The old school of bass playing was built around the strings available. I'm sure if Mr. Bille had steel strings he wouldn't have made that comment about the necessity of shifting so frequently with the fifths tuned bass.

3. Hand position in relation to body position when playing - If you want to pivot easily and use the crab technique and have a very relaxed hand it is easiest done with the bass in front of you, like a cello. If you are standing or not really having the instrument in front of you it makes the concept of weight transference in the left hand much more challenging.

I complete agree that the instrument sounds lovely tuned in fifths - there are more overtones which naturally makes it louder and it certainly is the most appropriate solution to reach the low notes, but I don't always feel that players that tune this way use the most "subtle" approach to their tonal palate.

Tomoya even admits he has difficulty playing in this tuning unless he is using a bass with a short string length. Perhaps this is due to his reliance on a four-finger technique, but I've seen guys use four finger technique on 42" mensure basses, and it is never their (or sometimes my) intention to always have the hand fully extended and rigid...It should be like a boxer, always moving, and relaxed.

Love the bass in fifths...Maybe when I retire I will retry.

 

[Chris Symer]

Nice post mrmarbles and again many good points to consider. Most of what you say I very much agree with.

In regards to point #2, I wonder if 100 years ago it was not only the gut strings that formed Mr Bille's opinion about the shifting but also the material that was being played at the time. The harmonic/rhythmic content and technical challenges of Mozart or Beethoven often sit under the hand better in fourths, while Stravinsky (whose music was reportedly causing fist fights at concerts 100 years ago...can you imagine that in an orchestral setting today?!) and Strauss wrote many passages which sit better and require less shifting when in fifths. Just wondering....

As for the the hand/body position and weight transference you mention in number 3, that issue is physically the same whether in fourths or fifths and shouldn't be considered an issue that only exists for fifths players. I completely agree with the way you describe your concept of the left hand. It was hard for me to break away from strict Simandl technique. It just seemed wrong to be loose after years of strictly following a set of fingering "rules". I wonder what Mr Bille or Simandl would have had to say about the more modern approach? Most likely that it is wrong and not practical in orchestra. It seems that any strict fingering approach, be it 3 or 4 fingers, tuned fourths or fifths, is going to have some hurdles to get over. Joel's approach to the left hand seems to solve a lot of the issues. It certainly works well for him. There. Now I mentioned Joel and his left hand, so we aren't off topic!

It's fun talking about fifths though!

 

[mrmarbles]

The best method, tuning, or bow hold is one that brings out your musical potential.

I'm wary of "career teachers" that invent methods to try and recycle students over and over to help provide them with income and have no real concern of their ability to perform in the real world - unfortunately I am seeing more and more of this in the bass community with more non-orchestral players becoming full time professors.

Perhaps someone can convince Joel to make a YouTube lesson series? MikeCanada?

 

[MikeCanada]

1. Strings are a challenge. Most of us have found a solution we prefer on our instruments, but more options would be wonderful. There are some guys in 5ths that are using custom strings, but the majority of us are using commercially available strings. They might not be in stock at our local bass shop, but they are no more expensive than a comparable set in 4ths. The low C string is usually the same or within a few dollars as an extended E, the G/F# is usually slightly more expensive than an orchestral A, but the high A is slightly cheaper than an orchestral G so I spend about the same as I did in 4ths.

The F#-G problem is an issue, but it does work on some basses and on others we cope. I use a Spirocore G from the Red Mitchell set for this reason but everyone finds their own solution. There are some instruments that don't work well with some strings but that isn't uniquely a 5ths issue. The high A can be brighter than a high G, which is why you will often see a darker string on top in 5ths. In an section it is rare to use the open A string, and a bit higher up it can sound just the same as the rest of the section. Yes, I would love to see more strings available and there are plenty of us who have contacted string companies and suppliers to make that heard, but give it time.

1.a. The "5ths sound" you mentioned with the wingless or low mass bridge, bright strings, bowing very close to the bridge, etc. does exist. There are also people that use a regular bridge, darker strings, and more "traditional" setup to get a 4ths sound for lack of a better description. I don't see a direct or focused sound as a bad thing, but I know it isn't always appropriate depending on the section. For my personal tastes some orchestra sections are pushing for such a dark sound that it turns into a rumble/mud, but that is possible in 5ths if that is what is desired. It is a diverse palate that is highly dependent on the wants and needs of each individual player, Which would become more apparent with greater exposure to more 5ths players.

2. There are a few out there, but I haven't met too many bassists that have started in 5ths. I have met a few who were cellists that made the switch directly to bass in 5ths. Many come from 4ths with a Simandl hand and adapt from there, but Joel's left hand technique can be applied very successfully to 4ths as well. There isn't necessarily anything wrong with Simandl or Bille techniques, but the strings and setup of the double bass have changed so dramatically since their time that they may very well have made different choices if they had modern instruments. The double bass is still an evolving instrument, so new methods make sense as that happens. Streicher, Rabbath, Petracchi, Vance, Bradetich, and Quarrington have all strayed from convention and teach the bass in a different way than 100 years ago. Some are not focused on producing section players, but they have all made a huge impact on the double bass.

In regards to shifting, in 5ths the span of a minor third (and occasionally a major third) is considered one position. It doesn't necessarily require more shifts than playing in 4ths, but they might be in different places. An easy example is a two octave C major scale can be played in one position from the low C to a D two octaves and a major second away. In 4ths you would have to stop the D on the extension or use a machine, shift to first position, play through the scale and shift for the high C and D, requiring at least two more shifts than in 5ths. In scalar passages in other keys typically one shift per string is required that might be a whole tone in 5ths where a semitone or pivot would be required in 4ths. In non-scalar passages, it really depends on each individual work. Considering how frequently the bass doubles the cello and many of those lines are written with the cello in mind, some things actually sit nicer in 5ths than in 4ths. Overall some things are easier in 4ths and some things are easier in 5ths but there is no clear winner. Harmonics can be challenging yet they don't come up all that often and we lose some solo repertoire that was heavily written with 4ths in mind. The Bottesini and Koussevitzky concertos sit really well in 5ths, but you have to pick your battles. Cello, viola, and even violin repertoire with octave transpositions are frequently used for recitals, and the Shostakovich cello sonata was an education in bass playing on its own.

3. I sit down. That transition happened before I switched to 5ths because balancing the bass with your left hand always seemed to require adding tension and sacrificing agility. I can play standing and usually do for pizz stuff like jazz and polka, but I have never found a standing posture I was particularly happy with while using the bow. While both options are valid it seems like most orchestra sections are sitting down now even if it is with a very upright/close to standing posture, and it is not uncommon to see soloists and chamber musicians sitting as well. I don't view sitting as a crutch for double bassists, you don't see too many bassoonists, cellists, harpists, pianists etc. stand either.

The point about reaching the low C is not worth diminishing. It is what started Joel on the path to tuning in 5ths. 5 strings, machines and extensions all have their drawbacks as well and I don't think we have found the perfect solution for getting to a low C, but I like how it isn't an addition/afterthought in 5ths.

If students are looking for an orchestra seat there are plenty of teachers that are still very much teaching with that in mind. Paul Ellison, Jeff Bradetich, Harold Hall Robinson, and Eugene Levinson are just a few on American faculties that come to mind as guys teaching section players. Joel continues to play with great orchestras and does teach that to his students as well. If I was planning on studying with Tomoya Aomori, Rabbath, or Edgar Meyer on the other hand, I wouldn't be doing so with the intention of becoming a section player for the same reason I don't order a steak at a sushi restaurant. I doubt any of these guys are teaching bass just so they can pay rent or to intentionally trap students in a never ending cycle of higher education. They love what they do and they help bass students become better bassists.

Joel keeps a fairly busy teaching schedule and frequently teaches masterclasses and summer workshops in North America and around the world. He was giving the occasional Skype lesson as well, but I do not believe that Youtube is currently in the cards. I was a previous attendee and have studied with two of his former students, one with a principal gig in a great orchestra in Ontario, the other a jazz/world musician currently on tour in Istanbul. Joel's method book and contact information are both available through his website if you are looking for an opportunity to get more information direct from the source.

 

[Les Fret]

In regards to shifting, in 5ths the span of a minor third (and occasionally a major third) is considered one position. It doesn't necessarily require more shifts than playing in 4ths, but they might be in different places.

Very good read that whole post Mike!
I always wandered about the shifting in 5ths tuning. I would think that scalar passages in 5ths tuning require much more shifting than in 4ths tuning and that chordal passages require less shifting than in 4ths tuning.

For cello this isn't a 'problem' because of the much shorter scale but for double bass scalar passages or minor and major seconds jumps from one string to another might be harder.
On cello and violin you could play CDEF on one string with 1234 and then GABC on the next string with 1234. Not sure how this translates to bass, especially the string crossing (the big jump from F to G example).

 

[MikeCanada]

I could be wrong about cello technique but from what I've seen 1234 for a major scale encompassing a 4th with the left hand is not typical. A Db major scale would start on the first finger on the low C string with a 1-1 shift from Db-Eb, with the minor third of Eb (F) Gb under the hand in a 1-34 spacing. The reach from Db-Gb even on cello is larger than ideal. There would be a shift back to what bassists would call half position for the Ab on the G string, and then the same 1-34 for the Bb (C) Db minor third. I would personally use that for one octave ascending to keep everything close to the nut, but you could also play Db Eb, shift to F,Gb,Ab with a 12-4 all on the C string, and shift back for Bb,C,Db 1-34 on the G string. That fingering only uses one shift up and one back.

With a 4ths Simandl hand the same octave of Db would start on the extension Db,Eb, shift to the F then shift for Gb,Ab, shift back for the Bb, and shift up for C,Db? Four finger technique/a pivot would eliminate the need for a shift once you left the extension, but would align more with Joel's technique than Simandl. A capo on the Db would eliminate one shift and there are likely different ways to do it such as a 1-1 shift from Db to Eb on the extension, but a similar number of shifts would be required just in different places.

In 5ths in the "worst" key involving no open strings, that is two shifts up and one shift back in the first fingering, or one (larger) shift up and one back for the second fingering. In 4ths, that is one similarly large shift out of the extension, two shifts up, and one shift back with the smaller shifts being a semitone instead of a whole tone compared to 5ths. It's an awkward thing to write out in text instead of demonstrate or use notation and fingerings but there are fewer shifts in 5ths in that example, they are just slightly larger. You could say "but what about not using the machine?" and you would see similar results as one position is considered a minor third in 5ths, but a whole tone in 4ths using those respective methods.

Non-scalar passages present both tuning systems with their own unique set of challenges. Tomoya Aomori has a youtube video where he discusses fingering possibilities for Ein Heldenleben in 5ths for rehearsal 9 and 77, and I would argue it sits a lot nicer in 5ths than 4ths. While quite a lot of orchestral double bass remains above the open E in 4ths and below the first D on the G string, shifting is a huge part of what we have to do. Where they occur in 4ths and 5ths might be different, but the shifting argument against 5ths always makes it sound like we do nothing but shift all the time when 4ths players magically never leave home base. That isn't the case in either tuning.

 

[mrmarbles]

I could be wrong about cello technique but from what I've seen 1234 for a major scale encompassing a 4th with the left hand is not typical. A Db major scale would start on the first finger on the low C string with a 1-1 shift from Db-Eb, with the minor third of Eb (F) Gb under the hand in a 1-34 spacing. The reach from Db-Gb even on cello is larger than ideal. There would be a shift back to what bassists would call half position for the Ab on the G string, and then the same 1-34 for the Bb (C) Db minor third. I would personally use that for one octave ascending to keep everything close to the nut, but you could also play Db Eb, shift to F,Gb,Ab with a 12-4 all on the C string, and shift back for Bb,C,Db 1-34 on the G string. That fingering only uses one shift up and one back.

With a 4ths Simandl hand the same octave of Db would start on the extension Db,Eb, shift to the F then shift for Gb,Ab, shift back for the Bb, and shift up for C,Db? Four finger technique/a pivot would eliminate the need for a shift once you left the extension, but would align more with Joel's technique than Simandl. A capo on the Db would eliminate one shift and there are likely different ways to do it such as a 1-1 shift from Db to Eb on the extension, but a similar number of shifts would be required just in different places.

In 5ths in the "worst" key involving no open strings, that is two shifts up and one shift back in the first fingering, or one (larger) shift up and one back for the second fingering. In 4ths, that is one similarly large shift out of the extension, two shifts up, and one shift back with the smaller shifts being a semitone instead of a whole tone compared to 5ths. It's an awkward thing to write out in text instead of demonstrate or use notation and fingerings but there are fewer shifts in 5ths in that example, they are just slightly larger. You could say "but what about not using the machine?" and you would see similar results as one position is considered a minor third in 5ths, but a whole tone in 4ths using those respective methods.

Non-scalar passages present both tuning systems with their own unique set of challenges. Tomoya Aomori has a youtube video where he discusses fingering possibilities for Ein Heldenleben in 5ths for rehearsal 9 and 77, and I would argue it sits a lot nicer in 5ths than 4ths. While quite a lot of orchestral double bass remains above the open E in 4ths and below the first D on the G string, shifting is a huge part of what we have to do. Where they occur in 4ths and 5ths might be different, but the shifting argument against 5ths always makes it sound like we do nothing but shift all the time when 4ths players magically never leave home base. That isn't the case in either tuning.

You could also use a five string bass. Peter Elias and Kai Arvi make very good ones.

Why don't you create a YouTube series on left hand technique for fifths? You seem very knowledgable for a young player.

 

[MikeCanada]

I have seen a few of Peter Elias's 5 string basses from before he moved across the ocean to Switzerland, and they are fantastic instruments. I have seen photos of some of Kai Arvi's instruments, but have not had the pleasure of seeing one in person. There are a few other modern names that come up when 5 strings are mentioned that are currently escaping me and some conversions that have been quite successful. I have heard of a number of sections that have Pöllmann instruments as well that good things are said about. In North America 5 strings are still quite rare and finding a good one can be quite a challenge. It sounds like they are much more plentiful in Europe.

I have only played one for a few minutes here and there, and making a leap of faith on a commission is something I have reservations about, especially for a 5 string when I haven't played one long enough to see if it is for me. They tend to be larger instruments with longer string lengths and bigger necks, which I found to be a challenge as not an especially tall or large handed bassist.

YouTube is a fantastic resource, but my technological knowledge is not strong enough for me to create a series on my own with enough camera angles and things to actually show what is happening in 5ths. What happens behind the neck with the thumb when it is stationary and when it shifts is also quite important, and if I was going to hire someone to help film and produce the series I would much rather that money go towards Joel, Paul, Tomoya, or one of the other pedagogues doing so instead of it coming second or third hand from myself. I am glad that the information I have provided is useful, but I would no longer be a young player by the time I figured out a video camera.

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

YouTube is a fantastic resource, but my technological knowledge is not strong enough for me to create a series on my own with enough camera angles and things to actually show what is happening in 5ths. What happens behind the neck with the thumb when it is stationary and when it shifts is also quite important, and if I was going to hire someone to help film and produce the series I would much rather that money go towards Joel, Paul, Tomoya, or one of the other pedagogues doing so instead of it coming second or third hand from myself. I am glad that the information I have provided is useful, but I would no longer be a young player by the time I figured out a video camera.

Go for it! You might surprise yourself. I've done about 12 of these now, and I figure after another 8 or so I'll be about half way to knowing what I'm doing. Seriously, you should think about doing it. You have a lot to say, and you could help a lot of people.

 

[mrmarbles]

Agreed. You should give it a shot.

I think fifths is very cool but right now it seems like a secret club verging on a cult that gets together north of the border and sacrifice beavers, or whatever Canadians do for fun.

More information should be published and a video series would certainly be helpful.

The only videos out there are a few of Joel, Tomoya, and then some guy sawing an instrument with a bow between his legs.