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John Paul jones tone anyone?

#21
Boy, I hate to even post to this as I doubt I know much about it, but I have heard some things over the years. I'll start by saying the importance of the members of Zeppelin IMHO are in order:

1. John Bonham
2. John Paul Jones
3. Robert Plant
4. Jimmy Page

I was in a shop I believe was called Guitar Gallery in Pasadena in 1992. They've since moved to somewhere else in LA. The owner, Scott as I recall, was a big Rickenbacker fan, and had many parts and relics. One of the items he had was a Rickenbacker amp from the first (?) Zeppelin U.S. tour. These were the large stacks with the trapezoidal shaped heads. I don't know if JPJ used one or not, but I imagine he did. Of course, his stage tone might vary from his studio tone. In the '60's and '70's the standard studio bass amp was an Ampeg B-15. He might very well have used one. I doubt they brought stacks into the studio. Studios were generally pretty small. Paragon in Chicago, where Styx and The Ohio Payers recorded is about the size of a bedroom. Big sound in a little room.

I don't know where I read this, it might have been at the Guitar Gallery, but when Zeppelin was preparing for their second U.S. tour, they were broke, and they sold their (Rickenbackers?) speaker cabinets, but only after replacing the speakers with lesser ones, and keeping the good ones for themselves!

I was also shocked to find (having lived through the Zeppelin era myself and not rememebring this) that the first three albums were released about 6 months apart, meaning I, II, and III came out within a 12 month period. As always, I could be wrong, and there must be a real Zeppelin expert out there who can clarify some of this.

OFF TOPIC: I was also transferring some vinyls to CD's this weekend and had forgotten that Rita Coolidge's self titled first album has performances by:

Clarence White, Leon Russell, Spooner Oldham, Chris Etheridge (bass), Jim Keltner, Stephen Stills, Booker T. Jones (bass, piano, & organ), Bobby Womack, "Duck" Dunn (bass), Ry Cooder, Fuzzy Samuels (bass), Jm Horn, [Clydie King, Venetta Fields, & Shirley Matthews = The Blackberries], Donna Weiss & Graham Nash. What a lineup. No wonder I love this album.

Dave Funk
 
#22
It's been so long since I've read this that I forget exactly what happened on Heartbreaker; but you're right. He didn't use the same old signal chain on that one.

My best memory leads me to believe that JPJ ran the bass into a normal clean rig, but also ran the D and G strings through a amp with fuzz. Two 360's at one time could have done the job. I really belive this is correct. I mean, If Brian May could record each of his 6 guitar strings on 6 different tracks at the same time, I imagine JPJ could have done this. Either way, I know for sure he was using one clean bass amp, and another with fuzz.

All the stuido wizardry can be misleading to the ear. For example. Jimmy Page ran his guitar direct for "Black Dog". That kindof shoots down anyone looking for that particular tone out of a Marshall Plexi. And there were also times when Jimmy would use the full blown Marshall Rigs in the studio. I think he did this on "Whole Lotta Love."

I dunno. Some people spend their whole life trying to replicate someone elses tone. No matter how good thier tone wast, that's just getting nowhere. Of course, learning from these guys is good, but to seek out every detail, you might as well just shoot yourself and stop wasting your time.
 
#23
Andrew Jones said:
Did a serch online came up with


Link Removed
Click to expand...

Thanks for posting the link, Aj. Very interesting to read about. Yes indeed, something crunchy going on on Heartbreaker that's not on the Lemon Song and Ramble On. If I had to guess I would go with the 2-Acoustic 360 thing Rock&Roll mentioned (except for the split-string thing). Jaco also used that setup and blended in the distorted rig to taste (his taste). It would have been cool to have been a fly on the wall during those early Zep sessions. I wonder if the distorted thing on Heartbreaker was JPJ's idea or if it was a production/engineering decision. I guess they could've even run his already recorded clean signal through a dirty setup after he tracked and blended the two tracks. I guess it's just that JPJ strikes me as a Jamerson-influenced R&B cat that found himself in a loud blues band. Of course, I have no evidence to back any of this crap up. I'm just "talkin' bass". :bassist:

Of course it's great if someone's paying you to come in and be "you" but if there's a good paying gig that requires you to duplicate someone elses sound....it would beat flippin burgers.

Funny but I figured all of us here would agree that the Zep guys in order of importance would be:

1.) John Paul Jones
2.) The rest of the band

:bassist:

-Scot :)
 
#24
I could be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that JPJ used a miked Leslie speaker enclosure for a song on LZII. Could it have been on "Heartbreaker"? :confused:

If not, what type of effect(s) was he using?
Cool tone, as usual.
 
#25
Arthur U. Poon said:
I could be wrong, but I think I read somewhere that JPJ used a miked Leslie speaker enclosure for a song on LZII. Could it have been on "Heartbreaker"? :confused:
Click to expand...

I read that in the BP interview from the Zooma era. Overdriven Leslie (do they have their own valve amps?) combined with his usual mic'd/direct signal.

Alex
 
#26
alexclaber said:
I read that in the BP interview from the Zooma era. Overdriven Leslie (do they have their own valve amps?) combined with his usual mic'd/direct signal.

Alex
Click to expand...

Thanks, I thought I read that somewhere too. I remember now it was from a BP JPJ cover issue. You're right, it was during the Zooma era when the article was written.

Yes, the Leslie cab has an internal tube amp, I believe it's 45 watts. Back in the early 80's I was in a band with a keyboardist who had a Hammond B-3 and a Leslie cab. We plugged my Rick into it to for fun and it sounded really good, especially when we pushed the amp to overdrive. Plus, you can vary the speed of the internal rotating speaker(or is it speakers?). At it's high speed, it has a vibrato or tremolo-type effect, the same type of tone JPJ had on 'Heartbreaker'.


(Off topic: Chris Squire's tone on 'Starship Trooper' also had a similar tremolo effect)


I think he also said in the interview that it was one of the only recorded tracks where he used an effect on his bass. I wish I still had that issue!

Thanks again, alexclaber! :cool:
 
#27
I can't add much more to what has already been said. If you want to see what JPJ is up to now here are a couple links with tour info and other goods. :D

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

I was hoping he would head a little further south, maybe I just need to roll north!

BC :cool:
 
#28
Ill tell you guys this... I just bought a 1964 Jazz Bass, and the first thing i noticed is that it sounds amazingly like JPJs... which was exactly what i wanted because i have coveted that sound for such a long time. i think youll notice that in the Song Remains the Same video, the bass has a very specific sound at some points.. (TSRTS, Dazed, Heartbreaker and Whole Lotta Love) but those dates being at the end of the tour, seems to me that the strings were older and had less "snap" but more punch... also, when Jones plays with his fingers, he is very light on his touch. The early Jazz bass pickups are really "super sensitive" and a modern heavy metal approach on it just doesnt work.. too clanky. you have to think like a bass player in 1973 or before to make it work.. and i have spent years learning this approach. ALSO.. JPJ made full use of his volume and tone controls, so being fluent in how these work fully is really an asset to re-creating the sound. But also having a bass 15 months younger than his definitely helps.

You cant use Zeppelins studio sound as a reference because JPJ used a few different basses, and unless you have them (one being about a 57 P-Bass) seen in the HTWWW video from Australia, you cant make the sound from a box. It all starts with the sound of your bass, and then your own articulation. Use higher action and sink your pickups into the body slightly more. Lower action produces less fat, round tone and more bright boingy snap, whereas higher action creates more natural body wood type sound, and truer notes.

Sooo, with all that, i sure didnt mean to shoot down anyones hopes, but really it starts with your bass.. if you want to get close, my advice is this..

some type of jazz bass
higher action
rotosound strings, a few months old
pick or finger style.. both have to be tight, no extreme picking
tone control about 1/2 brightness
more midrange in your amps eq, but not too much
and most importantly.... dont be sold on how your bass sounds by itself.. listen to it in context with the band. Im sure if you could hear Jones individual tracks away from the band, the sound would be dramatically different. (pick up a bootleg version of MSG 7/29.73 for a better idea of what i mean.)

Good Luck!
 
#30
Blue said:
There's another story I read recently: The guy that produced the early Cream Records also did the later Layla record. For Cream, it was mostly live in the studio, with Full Marshall Stacks. When he was hired for the later stuff - he pre-set the studio for a similar assault, and was shocked when Clapton and crew came in with a bunch of Champ-type amps.
Click to expand...

That would be the legendary TOM DOWD(for the record). He was the great Atlantic Records engineer.
YouTube - CREAM Tom Dowd & the Disraeli Gears Sessions 1967
 
#33
chiplexic said:
If you are talking about JPJones sound of early Zeppelin then you would have to wonder if he was using flat wound strings. Rounds were made by 1968 ,I believe ,but would he be using them since they were a new thing at that time ? Also if you listen to say... The Lemon Song on a decent stereo you can definately here the Jazz bass sound in its classic form . Not a sound easily reproduced by a Precision. If your talking about his sound with Led Zep in general then it could be something you could get out of your amp since he used various make basses by then including an early Precision.
Click to expand...
by the time of LZ III he was definitely using rounds. he claims it was all rounds and he hated flats, but i swear that the first 2 albums sound like flats.

anyway, no matter. to sound like jpj, turn off your tweeter, reduce your treble, boost the lows and mids a bit, and crank the gain so you get a little dirt. and then take a lot of lessons from him so you play like him ;)
 
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#34
I read an interview with JPJ in a a British bass mag (either Bassist or BGM - can't remember which) and was surprised to learn that early on in Led Zep he favoured solid state amps for their quicker response while stringing his jazz with flats. (the flats bit came as no surprise by the way)
 
#35
The other thing that complicates copping JPJ's tone is that he was equally adept at pick or fingerstyle playing and it was not uncommon for him to play songs live with a pick that he recorded fingerstyle in the studio -- or vice versa. I remember reading an interview once where he admitted as much.

+1 to the importance of his technique and +10 to a big part of his sound being the interplay between his bass and Bonzo's kick. Especially in live settings.
 
#37
John Paul Jones is quite simply, the consummate professional musician. A composer, producer and multi-instrumentalist whose skills translate equally well whether in the studio or in a live setting (which you don't find very often).

With his skill set, musical sensibilities and personality, I believe he would have been successful in any genre of music he chose. He just happened to pick a genre that also made him very wealthy and props to him for that!
 
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#38
miles'tone said:
I read an interview with JPJ in a a British bass mag (either Bassist or BGM - can't remember which) and was surprised to learn that early on in Led Zep he favoured solid state amps for their quicker response while stringing his jazz with flats. (the flats bit came as no surprise by the way)
Click to expand...

Exactly why he preferred the Acoustic 360.
 
#39
Yeah you would need a solid state amp to get any sort of transient response with an 18-inch folded horn enclosure.

A tube amp through 18s is pretty much "whoomp" city. Would have worked for some bassists of the time (and did), but not for getting across JPJ's more complex lines.
 

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