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Double Bass Juilliard Jazz & The No-Amp

#61
what a heated conversation. i had a few experiences with some of our example bass celebs:

Regarding Ben Wolfe:

I played in a section backing Diana Krall after she did that album with some orchestra arrangements, and the guys and I (we were really jazz bassists moonlighting as orch guys) were all knocked out by Ben's unamped tone in the rehearsal hall- especially considering he was playing with a 40 piece orchestra! But the sound and style we were playing was so complimentary to that sound- it wasn't clear or present but had wonderful bottom end- however, he was mostly playing ballads, med swing stuff, light and nostalgic. Before the gig we hung out with him for sec. I could tell that he decided we were some squares when he first met (we had the obligatory tuxes) and tried to work a buddy of mine over by having him play whatever tune they were doing in a bunch of keys- which he nailed. Then ben had us play his bass- A hawkes and son with gut stings cranked off the board. Those basses have wide necks, too. His drummer started razing on us- like "man these kids sound like p$#*@#*s on your bass" kinds of BS. (It's this kind of uuber jock mentality that seems to pop in the music world that really upsets me- and is no doubt part of the underling mentality here)- but once we got going Ben kinda of lightened up- he could tell we could play, once we got used to the instrument after 2 mins- he even heard me playing a little backstage and came by to tell me i did have good tone. it's that our body building friend has got it right- most of the people who think that your not a real man or something unless you play without an amp are not usually bassists! We talked with ben about his big bass/gut/no amp thing and he said it worked for him, and it didn't matter what anyone else thought- so kudos to him. I thought the bass sounded like mush on stage at the gig, but who knows how it sounded out front. I personally am not going for a gig with Harry Connick or mrs. costello and don't really like that sound as much as some other people who use an amp, low action, dynamics, vibrato, expressiveness, etc . .
(ps i always remebered the way ben's hawkes sounded, so when i stumble upon one a year later, i bought it, and i'd never give you hard time if you needed a sec to get used to playing it. and is ound nothing like ben wolfe on it.)

Regarding Mcbride:

I read the story of young christian getting told to play without an amp by a 'certain trumpet player" and having to lay off because of tendonitis. So i was shocked when i was playing with some cats from Julliard at the Jazz Aspen Snowmass summer academy (who BTW sounded like cocktail lounge musicians to me, and had mediocre time, big egos and didn't listen- that was a long week) and everyone was complaining about the bass tone, which i had been pulling my hair out for hours trying to fix (it was a bad room)- so i was shocked when mcbride walked up to the stage and turned off my amp for me- then told me to pull my action up a bit! ( for the record i had tried using a mic and PA that were there but the soundman was incompotent and it didn't help) Talk about mixed messages! We got into some discussion later about my right hand technique and i really got something out of the experience- but later that week mcbride did his gig in the same room (using an amp) and sounded terrible (sorry to say). The room shall conquer all! I heard Christian in every setting you cna imagine and they have ranged from the quasi spiritual to the " oh, sometimes the bass just isn't going to sound good- Christian is a mere mortal".

The other thing about guys like this telling you what to do is that they are living in a totally different world then most of us- i'm sure i could play unamped if most of the gigs i was doing weren't in rooms of crowded people- i wonder when the last time they had to compete with a noisy, indifferent bar crowd was. if you want to come over to my living room and listen to some friends and i play, i think you'd like my unamped sound a lot- but if were going to the bar, wedding, etc, i'm bringing my amp, even if it's just a duo. I've seen the guys in those situations palying without and amp- and the key word is seen, because they might as well have been home in bed, i can't hear a thing- but if you're into martyrdom, knock yourself out.

And digging is never the answer to getting a good sound! I think it's like trying to talk someone into falling in love you- the more you push, the less they want it- the bass has lots of sound in it if you can just learn how to coax it out, not by forcing it out. The most magic moments in musical life i seem to hardly be aware of the effort that it is taking to produce sound. that usually happens when i've been practicing regularly, am relaxed and am in those 1 out of ten sound situations were i can hear everything thats going on.

i think this issue really brings out some of the ever polarized realities that artist face- do you look forward, backward? do you follow the cutting edge or look towards the classics for inspiration? if you wake up and sound exactly like ray brown, is that good or bad? 1949, 1959 or 1969 miles? do you paint your lover the way they look, they way you'd like them to look, or the way you dream about it? shakespeare or david foster wallace? If i grew up in the burbs, am i allowed to listen to public enemy, bob marley, and charles mingus? if you come up with a beautiful image, does it matter whether you made it with a pencil or on your mac- does that change how beautiful it is? so if you use an amp or not- will this make someone feel your music or not?
 
#63
Robin Ruscio said:
The other thing about guys like this telling you what to do is that they are living in a totally different world then most of us- i'm sure i could play unamped if most of the gigs i was doing weren't in rooms of crowded people- i wonder when the last time they had to compete with a noisy, indifferent bar crowd was. if you want to come over to my living room and listen to some friends and i play, i think you'd like my unamped sound a lot- but if were going to the bar, wedding, etc, i'm bringing my amp, even if it's just a duo. I've seen the guys in those situations palying without and amp- and the key word is seen, because they might as well have been home in bed, i can't hear a thing- but if you're into martyrdom, knock yourself out.
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I dunno. Amp or no amp, I’ve come to feel that its pretty useless to try to compete with a noisy room ie a room in which people would rather converse and engage in general merriment than listen to what you’re playing. If the folks aren’t interested I what I’m playing, making it louder is just going to irritate them, and they're just gonna talk louder anyway. I’ve resigned myself to the fact for most people, music is background noise, a mood enhancer at best. Which is cool. I just like to play, and there are usually a few appreciative listeners, and they sit close to the bandstand. I play at a volume that is comfortable to me. To play louder to make people appreciate your music is like talking louder to someone who speaks a foreign language to make them understand you (OR USING THE CAPS LOCK ALL THE DAMN TIME).
 
#64
Geez, what is it about these "black or white" threads?

RICK (and anybody else) - if you want to actually read anything that anybody at this site has written about the use or non-use of an amp, the consensus seems to be - DO WHATEVER YOU NEED TO DO TO GET THE SOUND YOU WANT. But when you say stuff like "I've seen the guys in those situations palying without and amp- and the key word is seen, because they might as well have been home in bed, i can't hear a thing", you know that says more about the folks playing than it does the viability of playing acoustically, right?

I don't care why Ben or Christian or NHOP or George Mraz do what they do, I only care about what I have to do to get the sound that I want. It's not about being a macho man, it's not about what Kenston wants. It's about getting that sound. And I can get the sound I want-not just on top of the bass but out in the house- in a large variety of situations without using an amp. And if I can't, I bring the amp.

The point that everybody seems to be glossing over is that most of the time this question comes up, it's because somebody can't get the sound they are looking for out of the AMP. All I'm saying is garbage in, garbage out. You work on getting a good, focused, articulate sound out the bass WITHOUT an amp, then when you amplify you have a better chance (given whatever equipment you are using) a LOUDER VERSION of that good, focused, articulate sound.

I'm sorry Ben and Christian were mean to you, but just because you want to use an amp on a duo gig doesn't mean that it's the way to go for everybody.
 
#65
Mike Goodbar said:
I dunno. Amp or no amp, I’ve come to feel that its pretty useless to try to compete with a noisy room ie a room in which people would rather converse and engage in general merriment than listen to what you’re playing. If the folks aren’t interested I what I’m playing, making it louder is just going to irritate them, and they're just gonna talk louder anyway.


To play louder to make people appreciate your music is like talking louder to someone who speaks a foreign language to make them understand you (OR USING THE CAPS LOCK ALL THE DAMN TIME).
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Ah, well this something I know about, as a frequent audience member at Jazz gigs!! ;)

So, I think there are two different types of situation here.

Now if it's the case that the music is indeed "incidental" and the people are there primarily for other reasons - social, drinking, some kind of function etc etc - the I agree entirely with what you say, Mike.

But the type of situation I find myself in, as an audience member is that the Jazz is the only reason to be in that room and everybody has paid to be there and nowhere else, because of the advertised group playing.

But what often happens, is that no matter how hard I try to concentrate on the music alone - there are other distractions - like I need a drink, my friends need drink - we ask each other who wants what, as quietly as possible - but all this quiet talk does build up at well-attended gigs. So, at my local Jazz club, for example, somebody will come in who I haven't seen for ages and it would make them think I was incredibly rude, if I failed to acknowledge their presence in some way!!
And when somebody says - "can I buy you a drink?" I'm sure you'd agree it would be even ruder not to reply!! ;)

So - I like the social element of seeing friends and fellow musicians in a nice atmosphere, united in a common cause of supporting live Jazz - but I'd also like to be able to hear the bass, while I'm doing that !! ;)
 
#66
I remember quite a few knock-down drag-out discussions(before the advent of cable modems in Nashville) back when I was on AOL. They had a DB forum on their website where Ben Wolfe would hold forth on this subject on a daily basis, and there were always those on one side or the other and nobody ever budged an inch. I also remember talking to a friend in NYC, and asked him what the prevailing bass-sound style was at that particular time. He told me there were just so many different things going on - anything from no-amp guts to '70s Ron Carter mwah-amp stuff happening. You just have to march to your drummer and evolve when motivated. Personally, I like to play sans-amp when possible, but that's a rare occurance. Being a recovering "tendonite", I'm not going to stretch my luck.
 
#67
Ed Fuqua said:
I'm sorry Ben and Christian were mean to you, but just because you want to use an amp on a duo gig doesn't mean that it's the way to go for everybody.
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Just observing that this if often accompained by some kind of "real men play without an amp" attitude and that even McBride seems to go both ways- i was just confused by readin him say not playing with an amp caused him to develop tendonitis, and then he suggested that what i should do. He wasn't "mean"- i consider him to have been helpful and very positive, even if a i disagree with him. Also- it was Ben's drummer that was a trying to be a jerk- again the no amp idea is presented often by non bassists- like the julliard guys thought it was great- but then i thought they were jive anyway, so why should i care what they think? Loren Schoenberg (one of the top jazz history guys- he's starting the national jazz museum)and i had the same conversation- he didn't like the amp, he said he always thought the bass was to loud at the clubs in NYC- then again he admitted he didn't really dig on the kind of jazz that i'm most into. ( he also thought sitting was a bad idea- i like to stand now but i don't think it matters that much).

My greatest jazz teacher was Art Lande (a pianist), and he encouraged me to always play with an amp as he thought it allowed for greater dynamic range and a wider variety of articulations, which are more important to him. I love being able to play more delicately, to use more left hand and not have to punch everything out. he still kicked my ass if my tone sucked!
 
#69
The problem is that other musicians get on us for using an amp- they are trying to dictate our artistic decisions that we have considered at great length and second guess them- and usually they're not even bassists! And often it's part of the retro jazz thing that is keeping the music stuck in 1954! If you want to play that way- fine- but i have a different vision for myself.
 
#71
Robin Ruscio said:
The problem is that other musicians get on us for using an amp- they are trying to dictate our artistic decisions that we have considered at great length and second guess them- and usually they're not even bassists! And often it's part of the retro jazz thing that is keeping the music stuck in 1954! If you want to play that way- fine- but i have a different vision for myself.
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Screw 'em says I. I have no interest in the Neo-Bop movement. Nor do I have any interest in impressing the Civil War Buffs.

The Neo-Boppists, having not been alive at the time (most of 'em), have Rudy Van Gelder's recordings as their only reference and don't have the brights to realize that this is a studio sound. I've never talked to a single old timer who didn't say that the 'Golden Days' had just as many inaudible bass players as today. The old guys went ampless and on gut strings because they had to.
 
#72
Further, I think it's pretty rude to:

  • Get paid to play, only to be not heard.
  • Force an entire group to play ppp - mf because you've some fantasy about the 'Old Days'
  • Play at a generally lower musical level than your cohorts because you spend all of your physical energy on being loud, and playing crippled because your instrument is unplayable. There is no reason that bassists should be lacking in the facility or musicianship of any other instrument on the stand -- all the way from piano to saxophone to voice.
and....I guess I'll shut the rant down short because we'd be back on the freakin' Ken Burns / Marsalis / Crouch topic.

[Short-Burst Rant Mode: Off]
 
#73
GHOSTBUSTERS said:
Further, I think it's pretty rude to:

  • Get paid to play, only to be not heard.
  • Force an entire group to play ppp - mf because you've some fantasy about the 'Old Days'
  • Play at a generally lower musical level than your cohorts because you spend all of your physical energy on being loud, and playing crippled because your instrument is unplayable. There is no reason that bassists should be lacking in the facility or musicianship of any other instrument on the stand -- all the way from piano to saxophone to voice.
and....I guess I'll shut the rant down short because we'd be back on the freakin' Ken Burns / Marsalis / Crouch topic.

[Short-Burst Rant Mode: Off]
Click to expand...


Hear, hear! :D
 
#76
Adrian Juras said:
I won't argue. I'll just say one thing...It depends on the situation. Thats all.
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A very sensible comment (and I think most posters here will agree). I love playing unamped, and the (few) gigs that I did without amp or mic are among my most cherished ones. But the majority of the gigs I play do not allow for that, and for those occasions I use the amplification system that best suits my needs.

Vincent
 
#77
Man....you guys are intense. What a great world it would be if we could play all acoustic....the way it was meant to be. The sound of acoustic instruments is, indeed, a beautiful sound. However, the advent of sound reinforcement has made "music for the masses" a reality and for my money I'd like to sound as good as possible for those interested enough to listen; if that means amplified....so be it. :D

...now where do i plug in??
 
#79
Just read this thread. Yeesh.

First off, full, disclosure, I'm just a guy who makes extra money playing his ply englehart in little jazz combos, What do i know?

But for one thing, whether or not you need an amp is going too depend on a whole bunch of variabes beyond your control--how loud are the other players, how loud's the crowd, what's the room like, what's the bandstand like, what kind of tone do the other players produce, how much space do they leave, How's your strings and setup etc. Before we start beating each other up for lousy technique--and mine could stand a lot of improvement, there's a lot of "blame" to go around.

For another, bass players (except in orchestras) have ALWAYS wanted amps, have always been looking for ways to get more volume. As soon as there were amps, there were guys shoving cloth wrapped mics behind the tailpiece to try to make their job easier. Everett Hull, a bass player and the founder of Ampeg, claims players would frequently try to put their bass on an elevated, hollow stand, hoping to get more volume. So while I admire Walter Page's manhood, Page wanted an amp. It's not like there was a golden era of real manly bass players who laughed at the idea of amps. I bet if you'd of offered Jimmy Blanton an amp and a good pickup he'd have jumped at it

That being said, I'm happiest when i'm playing with guys who listen and don't overplay at volumes where I don't need an amp. I almost always bring an amp, and set it up, and start with the volume off, hoping I won''t need it
 
#80
Must be nice to have the time to didactivly rant on the minutia of an esoteric opinion but isn’t it really, as with all things in this dimension, a matter of physics. Do drums and pianos produce more db than bass or is it just an obligatory illusion?

I’m no Thiel or Small but in single mic recordings why is the bass, accept if there is a vocalist, closest to the mic and the piano and drums farther away? Could it have something to do with sound pressure level and the acustical physics phenomenon that would suggest that bass is not as loud as - or depending on which side of the fence (er, amp) you are on - other acoustic instruments.

Or perhaps it’s a function of physiology and a factor of auditory perceptibility or neuropsychological processing.

Which poses the question: If nobody was there to hear the un amplified bass in a band would it still be unhearable? But then many would argue that……………………

Which brings up a totally unrelated topic - but relevant………………………………….

If a man is alone in the woods is he still in trouble?
 

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