Thanks for sharing your extensive knowledge as a guitar player, but "...ears, feel, taste, etc." - those are, kind of, GENERICALLY-NEBULOUS ingredients of a bass-line.
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Thanks for sharing your extensive knowledge as a guitar player, but "...ears, feel, taste, etc." - those are, kind of, GENERICALLY-NEBULOUS ingredients of a bass-line.
By far the most helpful thing I've done to improve as a bass player was learning basslines that I thought to myself "wow I wanna be able to play like that" when I heard the song. Slowly but surely I was putting things I learned from trying to mimic others into my own lines. Cool stuff when it fits.
Yes. Precisely. Because playing is an art, not a science.
Is music theory Art of Science?
"In music, the rules were never meant to be broken. They were meant to followed!" - Jeff Berlin.
Music theory is 'science' ; applying it well is art
"Ear, feel, taste" is generically nebulous, true.
But it is the answer to a generically nebulous question
"how do I play changes in a way that isn't boring?"
specific questions can yield specific advice
generic questions yield generic adivce
"Ear, feel, taste" is a short hand for understanding many elements of music, beyond simply 'which note when'.
Perghaps a more useful way to express "Ear, feel, taste"
would be to suggest that there are elements of music which the OP is not yet considering fully.
The OP's complaint is that he is bored with choosing notes based on algorithms if theory.
Which indicates to me that he is not considering all the elements.
"Ear, feel, taste" is generically nebulous, true.
But it is the answer to a generically nebulous question
"how do I play changes in a way that isn't boring?"
specific questions can yield specific advice
generic questions yield generic adivce
"Ear, feel, taste" is a short hand for understanding many elements of music, beyond simply 'which note when'.
Perghaps a more useful way to express "Ear, feel, taste"
would be to suggest that there are elements of music which the OP is not yet considering fully.
The OP's complaint is that he is bored with choosing notes based on algorithms if theory.
Which indicates to me that he is not considering all the elements.
yeah kinda as those rules where there at the dawn of time. People took their time to discover them and people who think they're breaking a rules, just haven't been deep enough to know what they did.
I'm pretty sure you could play a generic drum pattern that we hear in almost every pop songs, slap some generic chord progression, play the most basic bass line with the most cliché rythm guitar line and there you go. You have a song. And no need for any musician to play together.
Yes, even cliché is based on some trivial rule.
Again, some kind of trivial rule.
Thanks for the answer.
Clef_de_fa, it's nice to hear from you again.
Thank you for your answer.
I agree with your statement. Articulation, mood, character, etc... is ART.
I can repeat/reiterate over and over again - the bass player's job (or any other musician's) is to make sure that even the simplest note, pattern, riff, groove, etc... is properly articulated in each and every bar/measure
, and fits with the rest of the rhythm section, band, orchestra, maybe, even "serves the song (who knows?).Most of us - the amateur bass players - tend to forget about it quite often
.About the "boring" part.
It's like driving to work everyday and taking the same route - samo samo. It could be boring, but it does not mean that the driver should do something else, like texting
, reading a book, or STREET-RACING
, etc... - instead of doing that "boring" driver's thing.Some other "boring" things like eating
, using a bathroom, dressing
, etc...In addition to that "boring" part.
I've haven't seen even ONE (1) question from an amateur/beginner bass player here at TB asking what the difference is between two EXTRA boring and EXTRA simple bass patterns that Aurally and Harmonically sound so DIFFERENT to me.
That questions has been bugging me for DECADES.
Pattern 1
Pattern 2
What's more. I've heard quite a few songs (popular songs) with those simple bass patterns (including some variations) but USUALLY, a PRO BASS PLAYER has never mixed/crammed those two (DIFFERENT to me) patterns in one song sporadically/intermittently.
Oh, YES. I've heard more than NUMEROUS amateur bass players frivolously MIXING both (DIFFERENT to me) patterns in one song.
P.S. I think I'm just a boring person living in the "Boredom" municipality.
Getting in late - so may be redundant, but hitch hiking on the boring, when I first came over to bass I would see the videos of "The Pros" moving all over and doing all kinds of things so I thought that is the way you should play bass.
Later I learned the value of a whole note and have just run up on a video that said:
Later I learned the value of a whole note and have just run up on a video that said:
- For the verse - root on the 1st beat.
- For the chorus - root on the 1st and 3rd beat.
- For the bridge - root on all four counts.
LowNloud1
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- Jun 11, 2012
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It can happen that you play a note in a passage that technically should not work but it does. It sounds good and enhances the music. It's rare but when it works, it sounds great!
Timings can also be a nice enhancement. Some bass lines lend themselves to a subtle delay, jump or simple alteration in a pattern that will change the character of a groove and make it better.
The C#-A-E-B progression on "Self Esteem by the Offspring" is an example. Their bass player plays two notes on every chord, I added a quick 3rd beat on the C# & E, 1..2,3, 1,2, 1..2,3, 1,2 and I thought it added to the edge. (I'm not a trained musician you'll have to cut me some slack on my musical notation. I do know it sounds good to me.) Simple but elegant. That's how I contribute to making a song more exciting for me and the band.
Timings can also be a nice enhancement. Some bass lines lend themselves to a subtle delay, jump or simple alteration in a pattern that will change the character of a groove and make it better.
The C#-A-E-B progression on "Self Esteem by the Offspring" is an example. Their bass player plays two notes on every chord, I added a quick 3rd beat on the C# & E, 1..2,3, 1,2, 1..2,3, 1,2 and I thought it added to the edge. (I'm not a trained musician you'll have to cut me some slack on my musical notation. I do know it sounds good to me.) Simple but elegant. That's how I contribute to making a song more exciting for me and the band.
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- Jul 3, 2007
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There's a lot of good suggestions in this thread. I especially liked watching that polyrhythms video; I never get to play top 40s stuff, but that makes me want to do some.
As for "boring" root-5th playing, here's a tune that Duck played bass on. It's included in a book I'm writing, because I want to show his versatility. 95% of the line is root, but includes many of the colors people already mentioned, like root/5th with groove (the bass dances around those notes at the end), 3rd in the bass, etc.
We all know Duck to be a simple, solid bassist, but his basslines are so fun!
As for being bored, when I was a jazz major in college, I thought I was above the pop gigs that I was getting hired for. I was in a country band that, while they were less experienced musicians, I was the weak link, because I was being cocky and playing these "boring" lines like I was bored. I wasted a lot of time on those gigs by not playing the hell out of those "boring" lines and actually enjoying the resulting grooves.
I really like the "transcribe" suggestion, because you're going to find world-class bass players doing something that you are able to do technically, but they have that panache that just makes that "simple" or "boring" line great. Learn those lines and ask why that is.
As for "boring" root-5th playing, here's a tune that Duck played bass on. It's included in a book I'm writing, because I want to show his versatility. 95% of the line is root, but includes many of the colors people already mentioned, like root/5th with groove (the bass dances around those notes at the end), 3rd in the bass, etc.
We all know Duck to be a simple, solid bassist, but his basslines are so fun!
As for being bored, when I was a jazz major in college, I thought I was above the pop gigs that I was getting hired for. I was in a country band that, while they were less experienced musicians, I was the weak link, because I was being cocky and playing these "boring" lines like I was bored. I wasted a lot of time on those gigs by not playing the hell out of those "boring" lines and actually enjoying the resulting grooves.
I really like the "transcribe" suggestion, because you're going to find world-class bass players doing something that you are able to do technically, but they have that panache that just makes that "simple" or "boring" line great. Learn those lines and ask why that is.
A very strong and truthfully-sincere statement that requires a lot of courage!
Very interesting.
"The devil is in the detail". I think quite a few bass players (or any musicians) really miss that point.
Transcribing is a VERY and SERIOUSLY IMPORTANT step along with mood, character, articulation, dynamics, etc...
I'm always trying to incorporate those "outlandish" to TB words like MOOD or character.
Ex.: The word, "Character" can be used to explain the differences between Flea's and Marcus Miller's slap.
Let's say, when I listen to Tom Petty's song, "You don't know what how it feels", the very first thing I hear is the MOOD of the song, next, I try to imagine the bass-lines' CHARACTER, etc...
- Jul 3, 2007
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Hey, I'm actually going to get to talk to Tom Petty! He used to try to get Duck to come in on at least one song on albums he recorded, because "Duck brought luck."
It's so easy to demonstrate my points from this thread by using Tom Petty's songs.
"Fault Lines" from Tom Petty and the Heartbreakers' album 'Hypnotic Eye'
The song's mood, the bass-line's character:
Bass Pattern 1.
Bass Pattern 2.
Live version. Please check how the bass player PROFESSIONALLY-seriously plays that "boring" bass-line.
IMO: if you should choose to use 'the chord' as your vocabulary, just 'playing the changes'; use that language to make a statement. Say something (I tend to play mostly pentatonic within the changes.) that supports the song. Use rhythms and phrasings to underscore the feel and general tenor of the tune; and be an artist, not a mechanic. If you're bored, it's on you.
FOrtunately most of my bass playing has been with people who have allowed me at least some freedom.
Sometimes there is a part of a song that "Needs to be" a specific way.
But mostly I can fill in or lay back, etc--and if it suits the song then fine.
If someone else is the leader and says what I played doesn't fit--I'll change it.
A very simple explanation (even a rule that could easily get VERY complex!) about the development of a bass-line, it's variations while playing some "LITE" music.
(P.S. I'm not talking about JAZZ or DEATH METAL. Be advised.)
If you add a similar rule for the drummer, and/or for the rhythm guitar/keyboard player, pretty soon, we could see a BAND, not just some lonely "bored-to-death" musicians "noodling" on stage.
What's more, if the bassist and the drummer for the Verse 1 decide to accentuate the 2nd beat in the 7th bar/measure and/or play the last 4th beat in the 8th bar/measure as the eighth note plus the eighth note rest NOT just something in between the quarter and the sixteenth notes, MAYBE, we could see a very tight band on stage.
(P.S. Infinite possibilities available!)
I truly believe that WAY too many bass players neglect that explanation (or a rule).
Now, let's get to that "outrageous" notion that a bass-line could be "a science".
I've programmed a simple 2-bar/measure drum pattern.
Here is a sound backup for that drum pattern (recorded with Guitar Pro 6):
http://www.talkbass.com/attachments...8/?temp_hash=c257a776b07e4a2b4ec0d5248bbcb1bd
A question.
How much is my drum pattern a SCIENCE and how much is an ART?
Another one.
Could somebody help me to "ARTIFY" a bass-line for that drum pattern?
P.S. Almost forgot. I'm a true believer that transcribing bass-lines MUST go together with transcribing the drum rhythm pattern.
Hey, that sounds interesting! I'd love to see if I could "artify" that.
Can you please email me the GPX file? I'd love to mess around with seeing what patterns I could compose over it
Hey, that sounds interesting! I'd love to see if I could "artify" that.
Can you please email me the GPX file? I'd love to mess around with seeing what patterns I could compose over it
No problem. I just need to figure out how to send that GPX file to you.
