• TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
    Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
    Join free Log in
    Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.

Double Bass Just started shopping for a DB

#21
tomshepp said:
Yet, when a player like Edgar Meyer plays bluegrass, he doesn't play on a Kay. I love/loved my kay, until I found the carved LaScala. Now I think about how to get a ply to the gig so I don't have to worry about the carved.:hmm:
Click to expand...

Agreed. I think there are better plys than Kays that have even better blooming tone. The carved roundback I currently play has a huge blooming tone and punch but with the sustain and complexity of a carved top. No, I don't think I'd want to haul it to outdoor bluegrass gigs (even if I still played bluegrass). I'd probably choose a ply for that. My choice, however, would not be a Kay. My favorite modern plys put my old Kay to shame.
 
#22
drurb said:
Once again, fdeck comes through with a straightforward, informative, dispassionate post. There you have it, straight from a Kay owner/player. I'm just a former one.
Click to expand...

I'm still confused about this 'thin neck = fatigue' phenomenon. I had a Kay for over 10 years, and although I played other basses in that time, I never found that its thin neck profile was a problem for me, nor did at any point any of my teachers suggest that I had a problem with my left hand technique that was likely the result of by bass.

My Cailin Wultur has a bigger neck, which I found a little off-putting at first but adjusted to. My Arvi has a neck that is a lot closer to the one that's on the Kay, to be honest.

Anyway, I still think that for many starting bassists, if you can find an old Kay, it's a fine choice to get you started. If you can afford one of the more modern instruments discussed in this thread and others, so much the better. But don't be too disappointed if not!
 
#23
I think $1500 to $2000 on a Kay that is properly set up is a reasonable way to get into DB and make sure you like it, that you'll stick with it, because if you don't, you can sell the Kay for what you've got in it. This is not true of a lot of other inexpensive DBs. If you spend $1500 on any bass that has to come to you on a truck, you have to assume it will need some kind of set up for a few hundred perhaps. Then, a year or two from now, if you decide to upgrade or get out of DB, you've got something that may be harder to sell than an inexpensive Kay. Why? Because if a newbie was really in the market for a 'new' starter instrument, companies like Upton and others make it pretty attractive to just spend the $$ and do it through them--they take credit cards, they take care of the shipping, etc. If you're the seller of one of these used instruments, it's just harder to recoup all of the $$ you put into it. This isn't so, in my experience, with a Kay or the like....people just want 'em, and they'll pay for them and feel good about it.

In your exact spot, after playing a lot of instruments in that range, I decided to spend a little more--about $3k--and get something that was quite a bit nicer. It was carved and my teacher was impressed. So, make you sure you play some basses just outside your price range and see if you want to stretch a little. Having a teacher with you to help you make the call is also a good idea.

Neal
 
#24
I'll offer my experience on the Kay vs. "other plywoods". I recently traded my 52 M1-B Kay for a Johannes Kohr 61V (a Chinese import, but not a CCB) and a chunk of cash. I think both parties are happy. I got a decent sounding plywood bass with a nice thick neck and a decent quality ebony board. Plus, the neck angle is much steeper on the Kohr. All in all, it feels just like playing my main axe (a 50's vintage carved German factory bass labeled Ottmar Hausman but that just as easily could have been labeled Juzek) - it doesn't sound anywhere near as good as my carved bass, but it feels the same. So on those occasions where I just don't want to take my carved bass (like some outdoor summertime bluegrass festivals and some really close quarter bar gigs), I have a reasonable alternative. The Kay did OK for all that as well, but I never could get comfortable with the skinny neck. I entertained the idea of substantial work to the Kay (like maybe a neck reset and an ebony board) but then I would have had enough money into it I would be within spitting distance of a New Standard - and the Kay was still "virgin" - no neck breaks or any major repairs. So, I elected to just get what I thought the Kay was worth (maybe a little less, since this transaction was between friends) and get a bass that fit my needs better although it has no mojo at all!!! Maybe even negative mojo?

But the point of this rambling post is that I have seen a lot of decent quality Chinese (and even European) plywood basses on the used market that are exceptionally good deals - I figure I've got about $1k into this Kohr bass (and it had a really good setup by someone in Austin, but I don't know who) and I feel as a student instrument it surpasses the Kay because

1) It dimensionally (fingerboard, neck angle) seems more representative of the better basses I've played
2) It sounds to my ear better than the Kay - not as much boom and volume but more even, balanced and responsive, especially up the neck.

So, now we're talking $1.5 - $2k for a decent Kay (and I agree, at that price you can most likely get your money back) vs $1k (and sometimes less) for a decent plywood Chinese/European bass (where you can also get your money back - sub $1k basses that are playable are NOT that hard to sell) that may be superior to the Kay. The only problem is that you may have to wait a little while for one of these deals to show up (but they will) and you'll have to convince yourself to trust your ear (and your luthier), or, if you're a newbie, trust somebody else's ear, because that bass most likely won't have a name that you recognize.

Mark
 
#25
wilsonn said:
I think $1500 to $2000 on a Kay that is properly set up is a reasonable way to get into DB and make sure you like it, that you'll stick with it, because if you don't, you can sell the Kay for what you've got in it. This is not true of a lot of other inexpensive DBs. If you spend $1500 on any bass that has to come to you on a truck, you have to assume it will need some kind of set up for a few hundred perhaps. Then, a year or two from now, if you decide to upgrade or get out of DB, you've got something that may be harder to sell than an inexpensive Kay. Why? Because if a newbie was really in the market for a 'new' starter instrument, companies like Upton and others make it pretty attractive to just spend the $$ and do it through them--they take credit cards, they take care of the shipping, etc. If you're the seller of one of these used instruments, it's just harder to recoup all of the $$ you put into it. This isn't so, in my experience, with a Kay or the like....people just want 'em, and they'll pay for them and feel good about it.

In your exact spot, after playing a lot of instruments in that range, I decided to spend a little more--about $3k--and get something that was quite a bit nicer. It was carved and my teacher was impressed. So, make you sure you play some basses just outside your price range and see if you want to stretch a little. Having a teacher with you to help you make the call is also a good idea.

Neal
Click to expand...

The Upton basses that come to you on a truck certainly do not need setup work. The same is true for a number of fine bass shops that ship their instruments. I do understand the economy of buying a Kay but, as I said in an earlier post, in my opinion, what is lost in terms of a well-designed instrument is too great a price to pay for the enhanced probability of a good resale value.
 
#27
wilsonn said:
after playing a lot of instruments in that range, I decided to spend a little more--about $3k--and get something that was quite a bit nicer.
Click to expand...

I would reccomend doing this if you can. If you could hold off on buying a DB for just a little longer and save up a little more, I think that this would be the best option for getting a good quality DB. For this price range, you can find more decent basses at better quality, rather than trying to find what is the best you can get from the cheaper basses. Also, a better quality bass will last you longer.

But....if you stay in the $1500-2000 price range, I'd still go with the Kay with a good setup. But now that I think of it...you can get started on the Kay, and if you think you're ready step up, sell the Kay for what you paid or even higher, and then get a better one. That is why you should go with the Kay. Good luck
 
#28
MDEbass said:
I would reccomend doing this if you can. If you could hold off on buying a DB for just a little longer and save up a little more, I think that this would be the best option for getting a good quality DB. For this price range, you can find more decent basses at better quality, rather than trying to find what is the best you can get from the cheaper basses. Also, a better quality bass will last you longer.

But....if you stay in the $1500-2000 price range, I'd still go with the Kay with a good setup. But now that I think of it...you can get started on the Kay, and if you think you're ready step up, sell the Kay for what you paid or even higher, and then get a better one. That is why you should go with the Kay. Good luck
Click to expand...

I agree wholeheartedly that one should go for the best possible instrument and that stretching the budget so that there is slight pain is almost always rewarded down the road. That said, I disagree with the generalization that a better bass will last longer. Setting aside CCBs and other cheap basses, a good laminate, purchased from a real bass shop, would not necessarily be expected to have a shorter life than a carved-top version. In fact, if anything, the opposite may be true! Don't get me wrong-- I greatly prefer carved-top basses and think they are well worth the extra $$$. It's the generalized longevity argument with which I disagree. Good plys can last many, many decades. As I've said before, in the $1500-2000 price-range (or any range for that matter), I'd go with the best bass that can be had. While resale value and ease is a factor, I place the premium on the design and sound of the instrument itself. That's why, IMO, the Kay is not the way to go.
 
#29
drurb said:
...a good laminate, purchased from a real bass shop, would not necessarily be expected to have a shorter life than a carved-top version...
Click to expand...
Is this the general consensus? I hadn't heard this till now. I don't understand why a laminate would last longer than a carved, or vice versa. (Mind you the consensus also says that I'm ignorant and closed minded, according to Kevin Hsieh). Would someone please provide me with an explanation.
 
#30
Bass said:
Is this the general consensus? I hadn't heard this till now. I don't understand why a laminate would last longer than a carved, or vice versa. (Mind you the consensus also says that I'm ignorant and closed minded, according to Kevin Hsieh). Would someone please provide me with an explanation.
Click to expand...

So, I hate to get in the middle of squabbles, but I think the general consensus is that there's a whole layer of potential complication buying a 100% carved bass for a new player. Humidity has more effect on carved bass: you can develop cracks, the bridge moves up and down more on a carved bass due to changes in weather. A good laminate mitigates some but not all of these problems. An older carved instrument that's been through most of its drying, aging may be somewhat less prone to this than a really new carved bass, but not much. But in any case, a laminate is seen by many here as a perfectly reasonable way to start.
Neal
 
#32
tomshepp said:
I think the OP was simply asking if an old Kay was a good way to get started. That is, if Kays are good enough to play and learn on and good at holding their value. Right?
Click to expand...

Well, no, that's not what he asked. He was asking whether that would be a good choice relative to other options, not whether that choice was "good enough."
 
#33
Bass said:
Is this the general consensus? I hadn't heard this till now. I don't understand why a laminate would last longer than a carved, or vice versa. (Mind you the consensus also says that I'm ignorant and closed minded, according to Kevin Hsieh). Would someone please provide me with an explanation.
Click to expand...

wilsonn said:
So, I hate to get in the middle of squabbles, but I think the general consensus is that there's a whole layer of potential complication buying a 100% carved bass for a new player. Humidity has more effect on carved bass: you can develop cracks, the bridge moves up and down more on a carved bass due to changes in weather. A good laminate mitigates some but not all of these problems. An older carved instrument that's been through most of its drying, aging may be somewhat less prone to this than a really new carved bass, but not much. But in any case, a laminate is seen by many here as a perfectly reasonable way to start.
Neal
Click to expand...

It's not a squabble at all. wilsonn is quite correct and the factors he states were the basis for my comment. Considering a quality laminate vs. a quality carved, for example from the same shop, there's no reason to think the laminate would have a shorter life at all. That's because they tend to be more impervious to damage.
 
#34
I mentioned Kay and Englehardt in my OP because those were the two brands of used, affordable basses the shop I went to had. drurb is correct in that I was inquiring if those were fair choices for someone looking to start out vs. other options (like new basses that may need setups, etc.) My intent wasn't to start a Kay vs anything else - just get some opinions from guys who have experience, 'cause I don't. It seems that the Kays and Englehardts tend to be more common.

I'm just doing research and trying to determine my best option right now. If that ends up being a Kay, so be it. I get the impression that a Kay would be fine for my needs, but that there are other options out there that could provide a better instrument for me in the long run.

I appreciate everyone's input, even if some of you are bickering! :)
 
#35
Go play the best basses in your price range that you can get to. Take a trustworthy, experienced player with you. Buy the best of the bunch, putting the most emphasis on sound and feel and the least on the label inside the instrument. It really isn't too complicated in my humble opinion.
 
#38
Probably not. It's just that there are certain gigs where I don't feel comfortable taking my new carved bass to. Also, the weather has been very cold and dry. So it does have me thinking about upgrading on the Kay. Either by improving it or selling and buying. Whatever you do...... DON'T TELL MY WIFE:D
 
#39
While I agree that you want to buy a d/b to play and not as an investment you may also get hooked on playing d/b and may want to upgrade someday. Given this you might want to consider Kay or Engel due to the likelihood of an easier sell. I think that it's harder to convince what may be your virtual market (i.e., ebay) that your Asian or Eastern European laminated d/b is quality and not junk without some name recognition. Collecting formerly used d/bs will take much more room than electric basses.

Good Luck

Jim

Englehardt ES 9
Rob Allen Mouse
2 Godin A4s (fretted and fretless)
old Fender Music Master
 
#40
tomshepp said:
Probably not. It's just that there are certain gigs where I don't feel comfortable taking my new carved bass to. Also, the weather has been very cold and dry. So it does have me thinking about upgrading on the Kay. Either by improving it or selling and buying. Whatever you do...... DON'T TELL MY WIFE:D
Click to expand...

i wont tell her if you buy it here tom! by the way that 1/2 ply is ready to roll and sounds pretty good for what it is.
 

Latest posts

Top Bottom
Back