Double Bass Kay scroll / pegbox plates

[james condino]

Here is an image of the only set I've ever seen, an extra pegbox / scroll stiffening plate on an old Kay that beefs up the area where they often break, circa 1952:

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Purdy.

 

[Steven Ayres]

Here is an image of the only set I've ever seen, an extra pegbox / scroll stiffening plate on an old Kay that beefs up the area where they often break, circa 1952:

That's unique in my experience as well. It looks like it would be a fun thing to make.

 

[unbrokenchain]

Battle armor for a bass

 

[GretschWretch]

Clearly my old M-1 never had one of these. The scroll was already missing when I bought the bass.

 

[turf3]

I think both the upper and lower plates would look better if they were inset so their top surface was in line with the top surface of the pegbox. It doesn't seem, however, that this is done on basses.

 

[Steven Ayres]

I think both the upper and lower plates would look better if they were inset so their top surface was in line with the top surface of the pegbox. It doesn't seem, however, that this is done on basses.

It was definitely not much considered in the Kay shop, at least not after 1938. Sometimes I'm amazed at how sloppily they appear to be put together up there. I expect that the bandsaw work to cut the boxes was quick and not tightly controlled, then the drilling was done on a jig referencing a couple points on the edge of the box, and the tuning plate just wound up wherever after that. It was fast and cheap, and you know which point on the iron triangle suffers under those conditions.

 

[james condino]

From a factory standpoint, there is no utility inlaying the tuning machines; they don't function any different and it adds another step to the manufacturing process that also requires other aspects like the proper alignment of the holes to be even more precise. The beancounters would instantly remove that step. If they didn't, the guys on the production floor would unofficially eliminate it when the beancounters started yelling at them to increase production speed. All factory work sucks for the people on the floor; factory produced instrument making is no better.

At peak production, I believe the old Kay factory was producing over 100,000 combined instruments a year. Considering that, in a lot of ways it is amazing at what they did turn out. 2000 instruments a week with no cnc or modern digital production equipment, just a bunch of old school semi skilled labor and manual machines like bandsaws and sanders and shapers and guys smoking in the spray booth and in the shop covered in sawdust....

 

[Steven Ayres]

If my estimates are close the string shop was turning out 600 basses and cellos a week at peak production in the early '50s.

 

[turf3]

From a factory standpoint, there is no utility inlaying the tuning machines; they don't function any different and it adds another step to the manufacturing process that also requires other aspects like the proper alignment of the holes to be even more precise. The beancounters would instantly remove that step. If they didn't, the guys on the production floor would unofficially eliminate it when the beancounters started yelling at hem to increase production speed. ..

Yes, absolutely.

It is, however, a little surprising that apparently not even high end makers inlay the plates. I agree it makes no functional difference, but it seems that it would look aesthetically more "finished".

I am not sure why I believe this, so now I'll have to think of examples where something similar is usually inlaid.

 

[james condino]

If my estimates are close the string shop was turning out 600 basses and cellos a week at peak production in the early '50s.

Then add in multiple thousands of guitars & ukes and banjos & other instruments on top of that!

 

[Don Hergert]

From a "down the road 30 to 40 years" standpoint, there may be a difference between inlaid and non-inlaid plates though. Inlaid plates means that when it's time to change the tuning machines, you have to have an exact match of the plate, otherwise the routed out area for the plate would have to be somehow flattened. This also gets complicated regarding wall thickness on the pegbox.

As another factory economy example, in 1925 Gibson moved boldly into banjo competition with their first banjos that comply with what is currently considered the standard Mastertone shape... And they went whole-hog. The tone rings on these banjos, now known as "ballbearing" tone rings, have a circular brass rod hand-welded to a circular brass tube with 60 holes drilled in it, hand-welded to a circular brass scalloped spacer plate, all sitting over a 3-ply laminated rim on 24 inset ball bearings which are sitting on washers, sitting on high-tension springs, sitting on more washers, providing a spring-loaded effect...

Highly popular, Gibson made thousands of these banjos though 1925 and 1926. But by early 1927 they had had enough, the labor costs were just going through the roof. Their new design, completely replacing the welded assembly and all the spring loading, was a comparatively simple cast bronze tone ring on a solid 3-ply laminated maple rim. This is a basic design that survived until 2010 when Gibson stopped making banjos; from a tone and volume standpoint the majority of buyers have preferred this 1927 basic tone ring design since its creation...

FWIW, Gibson is reported to have had stray ball bearings in the corners of the building until they closed the Kalamazoo factory in 1984.

 

[Eric Hochberg]

I remember Arnold Schnitzer writing that he didn't like the idea of weakening the pegbox area by removing wood to inlay. And I think he was referring to French style gears, not whole plates!

 

[eh_train]

I remember Arnold Schnitzer writing that he didn't like the idea of weakening the pegbox area by removing wood to inlay. And I think he was referring to French style gears, not whole plates!

I recall that as well. Still, those inlaid French tuners look real spiffy...

 

[Jake deVilliers]

Yes, absolutely.

It is, however, a little surprising that apparently not even high end makers inlay the plates. I agree it makes no functional difference, but it seems that it would look aesthetically more "finished".

I am not sure why I believe this, so now I'll have to think of examples where something similar is usually inlaid.

I think its got more to do with tuner replacement - but it would take an unbelievable amount of time to inlay the tuners into an instrument, so its just never done. I can't recall seeing any mandolin, banjo, guitar or bass tuners inlaid - even $35,000.00 classical guitars have the tuners surface mounted...

 

[turf3]

I think its got more to do with tuner replacement - but it would take an unbelievable amount of time to inlay the tuners into an instrument, so its just never done. I can't recall seeing any mandolin, banjo, guitar or bass tuners inlaid - even $35,000.00 classical guitars have the tuners surface mounted...

Now that I think of it, I can't remember ever seeing a string instrument wtih tuner base plates inlaid. On the the other hand, hinges, lock escutcheons, and the like are very commonly inlaid in furniture and cabinet making, and no one seems to make much noise about it being a big deal or terribly expensive.