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Double Bass Kay Tuning Machine Issues

N

Nathan Parker

Oct 10, 2008
698
14
Seattle, WA
#1
Hello TB,

I'm sad to say I'm having some issues with my machines on my Kay. The D and A are both becoming unreliable. The D gets jumpy when I tune it flat, dropping down in about quarter tone increments. It's okay at the start of the gig, but it makes tuning on the fly during songs tricky. Kind of a thrill, though.

And now the A has started misbehaving. To get it into tune I have to go sharp past the A, then back down. Usually it hold for a few minutes, but then I hear a little "click" and its dropped about 15 cents flat according to my tuner.

So is there a solution? Should I just get new machines? If so, what kind. I'm poor, so I'd prefer to do it myself. I know people sell Kay machines, but I fear they will just behave the same way eventually. Your thoughts?
 
#3
Maybe your nut slots are too narrow. Try to find out if it is the peg turning or the string slipping over the nut. You might find it out by listening to your strings in the pegbox if they tune down but not the playing string length, it is the nut. If they don't change or change together with the playing string length, it is the tuner.
 
#4
You could try rubbing pencil lead in the grooves at the nut, if the string is catching.
And making sure the screw holding the drum gear to the pegbox is tight
And check that the strings are not slipping off the peg and or breaking
 
#5
DoubleMIDI said:
Maybe your nut slots are too narrow. Try to find out if it is the peg turning or the string slipping over the nut. You might find it out by listening to your strings in the pegbox if they tune down but not the playing string length, it is the nut. If they don't change or change together with the playing string length, it is the tuner.
Click to expand...

I agree, it sounds more like a problem with your nut.
 
#6
Nathan Parker said:
Hello TB,

I'm sad to say I'm having some issues with my machines on my Kay. The D and A are both becoming unreliable. The D gets jumpy when I tune it flat, dropping down in about quarter tone increments. It's okay at the start of the gig, but it makes tuning on the fly during songs tricky. Kind of a thrill, though.

And now the A has started misbehaving. To get it into tune I have to go sharp past the A, then back down. Usually it hold for a few minutes, but then I hear a little "click" and its dropped about 15 cents flat according to my tuner.

So is there a solution? Should I just get new machines? If so, what kind. I'm poor, so I'd prefer to do it myself. I know people sell Kay machines, but I fear they will just behave the same way eventually. Your thoughts?
Click to expand...

Hey Nathan, have you lubed those poor things at all? A couple of drops of 3-in-1 Electric Motor Oil on all the moving parts makes a big difference to the performance and the lifespan of tuning machines.

Do you have too much string on the post? Three to four turns is plenty.

Nut slots are really important too, but you should always tune up to pitch - tuning down always leaves the portion of the string wrapped around the post holding extra tension. When its released, you end up flat.
 
#7
Thanks for the suggestions, team. I will try them all today. I tried spraying liquid graphite in the D because it felt as though there was metal on metal grinding, and that's when the slipping began. I don't have that much string in the post, but I'll peek at that as well.

As for the nut being the culprit, I never thought of that. I lube the slots today and see if they need to be opened up a touch.

Onward and upward!
 
#9
On a side note, I removed the original tuners from my Kay a few years ago and replaced them with Rubners. It's easier to get in tune now, and I don't worry about destroying the originals on the road, the grips were taking some abuse. I still have the originals, they'll stay with the bass, but the newer tuners make my life a lot easier.
 
#10
Make sure everything on the machines is properly tightened. The screw that holds the round gear in as well as the small screws that hold the machines on. If anything is loose, you can have binding and later release of the resulting tension.
 
#11
What kind of strings are you using? If it's the Chorda's listed in your profile, I'd be chucking the bridge and nut slots for binding issues.

If none of the suggestions folks have offered here are a fix...Maybe a hairline fracture of the peg box or scroll area. I'd be checking the fit of your tuners to the scroll as well.
 
#12
Did some work on the A string nut slot, as well the bridge slot. Did some on the D nut slot. We will see how it works. I have to work for the next 3 days, and she'll be the girl on the job, so I'll see how it works out.

The D peg issue really seems to be the gear/peg interaction. All gears have some slop in them, but this extreme. You can hear it jump instead of turn smoothly when I tune it down in pitch. When I got the bass, that gear was really tight, and had a sound of metal on metal grinding when I turned the machine. So I sprayed some liquid graphite up in the mutha. And now it's doing this. Silly gear.

I did use some gun oil on the machines, Jake. I know you Canadians might not know what that is, so feel free to think of it as lawnmower oil.
 
#16
Nah, the bass is cool, just needs some love. I can live with D string issue, as its consistent and kind of controllable.

If I do replace the machines, I probably won't go for the same kind, as they seem crappy to me. I don't care about maintaining the bass as a collectors piece. She's a working girl. Like the Millenium Falcon. She don't look like much, but she's got it where it counts.
 
#17
KUNGfuSHERIFF said:
Maybe plutonium for the flux capacitor so you can go back in time before you bought the bass, when it started to go bad. I'll keep you in mind in case I stumble over a set if Klusons. Know any machinists in your area?
Click to expand...

Simply removing the offending gear and reinstalling it, and giving a good squeeze to the stem housing fulcrum points on the plate to tighten it up, might land the Kay in time somewhere in the vicinity of it's date of origin.
 
#18
Nathan Parker said:
Did some work on the A string nut slot, as well the bridge slot. Did some on the D nut slot. We will see how it works. I have to work for the next 3 days, and she'll be the girl on the job, so I'll see how it works out.

The D peg issue really seems to be the gear/peg interaction. All gears have some slop in them, but this extreme. You can hear it jump instead of turn smoothly when I tune it down in pitch. When I got the bass, that gear was really tight, and had a sound of metal on metal grinding when I turned the machine. So I sprayed some liquid graphite up in the mutha. And now it's doing this. Silly gear.

I did use some gun oil on the machines, Jake. I know you Canadians might not know what that is, so feel free to think of it as lawnmower oil.
Click to expand...

Haha. The point of the Electric Motor Oil is that its very high tack and won't migrate all over the scroll/pegbox area.
 
#19
Dan Erlewine's book on guitar repair recommends against oil because it can seep into the wood and cause the wood to swell up. I suppose with the bigger parts, it's worth at least being very sparing with the oil. I prefer just a bit of beeswax.

I've serviced my Kay pegs, and various other instruments. I've also got a personal rule to find a root cause if possible. What I'd do is loosen the strings entirely, and then find out what's actually causing them to bind.
 
#20
Nathan Parker said:
Should I have gone with a more progressive choice? Prius oil?
Click to expand...

No, you should prove you are a real man and take it apart. Then put it in the trunk of your "80's gas guzzlin' Detroit Nightmare. Let it get good and hot in there. After a few beers and a watching violent Hockey game or two on your belly-tele, get a pair of cheap american made pliers, a ball peen hammer, and start bending it into submission..:D
 

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