keyboard and bass interfering with each other?

[LordRyan]

This situation seems to come up a lot on Piano-heavy music. I can cite many examples where the Piano plays very low and arguably doesn't clash with the Bass.

There are several Beatles song like Lady Madonna, Let It Be, Hey Jude, Hey Bulldog, where the lowest reaches of the Piano part seem to co-exist fine with the Bass.

Many Elton John songs have low end Piano but you always hear the Bass clearly.

On some Doors records Ray Manzarek pretty much doubles the Bass Guitar on the low-end of the Piano and it sounds fine to me.

Even going back to Little Richard and Jerry Lee Lewis they were pounding low octaves on the Piano usually with a Bassist in the band.

If the Keyboardist were to play any of the aforementioned music with the left hand an octave higher it wouldn't sound right and his left and right hands could get in the way of each other.

 

[M Sterling]

Yeah, it's all in the left hand. Most pro guys know how not to step on the bass. Some have to be taught. Don't let this opportunity to educate him slip by.

 

[seamonkey]

Do a couple of side rehearsals - just you and keyboards. Work it out.

 

[squidtastic]

I've felt your pain. Best thing, as mentioned, is to have him either remove notes that are in the same range as the bass line or change his part. The problem with simply trying to EQ things is that live sound isn't nearly as controllable as studio sound -- yes, some recordings have low piano parts in the bass register, but careful use of EQ and panning usually prevent the kind of mud you're quite rightfully worried about. We just can't count on that degree of control in live situations.

And as others have mentioned, keys players should understand (or learn) the difference between playing solo and being a member of a band.

 

[two fingers]

It's the player, not the EQ or equipment. If you turn the bass way down on his channel, it will just make the whole keyboard sound like crap. There are fundamentals, overtones, and a host of other physics issues that we need not get into here. The simple fact is that if he is used to playing solo, or with a bass player who just doesn't care, he is unaware of what he is doing. He needs to be informed that there is a bass player in this band and he need not try to sound like the left hand of God on a 20ft Steinway all the time.

Imagine having two bass players in a band, both playing similar parts in the same range. Now, imagine what it would sound like if you simply tried to use EQ to keep them from stepping on each other. At least one of those basses is going to sound like crap (and more likely both). There is no difference here. Two instruments capable of the same range playing similar parts. Not only are there sound issues, but rhythm and phasing ones as well. He could be playing a slightly different line, but very similar to what you are doing. Now THAT will simply make the bottom sound like a hot mess and no amount of EQing will fix it.

Short version: Make him aware that he needs to play keys and let you play bass (in a diplomatic way, of course). But, be forewarned. We like to piss and moan about guitar players around here. But I have never met more deaf, and hard to get along with players than keys guys. Oy.

 

[ToadWarrior]

Just be happy your not playing with an accordion player where you have to worry about your bass sound feeding back through his accordion, coming out of his amp and creating the ultimate mud....

 

[Ed Fuqua]

There's a great Ron Carter story, he's playing with a pick up group and,at the sound check when he's meeting the musicians, he ask the piano player "What kind of piano do they have?" and the pianist responds "A Steinway." "Cool", Ron says "I got everything below S."

 

[tspallone]

Tell him that if he goes below middle C, he's gonna get hurt!

 

[madurolover]

We had the same issue but since we moved keys to plug into the board, the sound loss is in the vocals. It feeds to much in our space if the mic is turned up Here is a sample of a recording we just finished. It is a practice audio and we blew the solo but you can hear the bass cut past the keys

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed]

 

[Joe Louvar]

Ok, so a very good friend of mine has started playing keyboard with us and he's awesome. The only problem is that the last time we played live, it makes it difficult to hear my bass cut through the mix.

I don't know anything about the physics of sound but it seems like to low end of the piano is interfering with my sound and it just sounds like a muddy mess (at least to me). There were a couple times that I actually had to do a double take because I thought I was playing the wrong note.

Keyboard is going directly into the PA and my setup for this last small gig was my markbass LM-II and 1 of my Aggie 112s. I typically use 2 112s but this deal was just a small patio thing so I figured one was enough.

Anyone struggled with this or have any suggestions?

Thanks!

Your friend is stepping on your bass with his left hand - tell him to stop it or tie his left hand behind his back. Seriously - unless he’s doubling with you on certain parts he shouldn’t be playing bass lines (that’s your job) - he should be playing chords, melodies, etc (that adds without interfering). Many newbie keyboardist (new to playing in a band) don’t know how to play/blend in a band environment and have a tendency to overplay and step on other players - especially bass players.

 

[will33]

I waffle back and forth on this. I think it's more of a eq/tone issue rather than a "don't play below this note" issue.

I've played with keys that were no issue at all no matter how far left their hand went and I've played with keys guys who made mud an octave above where mud is.

A low note on a piano or an organ does not sound the same as a low note on a stringed bass, electric or otherwise, and when you think about it, there really is no reason the 2 can't co-exist.

Again it comes down to chosen tones, ensemble playing, "mix slotting", and the like.

I've played with keys guys who made me/us sound awesome when adding sound down there and I've played with guys who made a mess of things without dipping that low.

It's all in the difference between a player and a musician.

 

[_asdfgh_]

To the OP I'd suggest recording the band and playing it back to everyone. Not least because how it sounds on stage might not be how it sounds FOH. If it sounds good FOH but not on stage then the monitor mix (relative level, total levels or EQs) might be wrong.

The other thing to do would be to do record a track part-by-part and mix it how you want it to sound, and then compare the FOH sound to that and see how the live sound might be made more like the recorded sound if that is the sound you want to project as a live band.

 

[Joe Louvar]

I waffle back and forth on this. I think it's more of a eq/tone issue rather than a "don't play below this note" issue.

I've played with keys that were no issue at all no matter how far left their hand went and I've played with keys guys who made mud an octave above where mud is.

A low note on a piano or an organ does not sound the same as a low note on a stringed bass, electric or otherwise, and when you think about it, there really is no reason the 2 can't co-exist.

Again it comes down to chosen tones, ensemble playing, "mix slotting", and the like.

I've played with keys guys who made me/us sound awesome when adding sound down there and I've played with guys who made a mess of things without dipping that low.

It's all in the difference between a player and a musician.

Yep, good keyboardist are great. But FWIW: I absolutely guarantee if I wanted I could bury any bass guitar with keys/synth no matter how they EQ their bass!!! The keyboardist needs to stop stepping on the bassist - period!!!

 

[RoadRanger]

What if there was an accident w/ the keyboard players left arm?

As a bass player I try to be safe by making sure my chainsaw is sharp, fueled up, idling well, and always to the left of the keyboard guy so if an accidental amputation does happen it's no big deal .

 

[bass81800]

I agree with a former poster that this really is not an EQ problem.

I play a lot of jazz, Latin, and other genres, and any good keyboard player knows how to stay out of the bassist's territory. A good jazz keyboard player will avoid playing the roots and focus on playing the 3rds and 7ths of a chord. Not exactly sure how that translates into other genres of music, but nothing sounds much worse than the bass playing the same lines as a keyboard player, who sometimes even plays it an octave below the range of the bass. Creates mud and sounds bad.

 

[Stone Soup]

The common solution, for nearly every project I've been in, has been using the high pass filter on the keyboard channels. The keyboardist also has to understand he's working with a bass player. This means he doesn't play your parts.

Have you ever heard a pianist and a bassist both playing improvised walking lines to the same song? Yeah... It ain't pretty.

 

[Lynwood32]

I'm a bassist. Have the same terrible problem. I hear the dessinance in every song we do. He doesn't hear it so it doesn' bother him. (Solution) play a lot of chords, wrong chords, play out of tune and make him miserable as he makes you them ask him how does it feel. I'm close to quitting the band. I try to talk to him about it but he is a cocky ******* and not a real keyboard player anyway.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Some big band charts are annotated ''piano sounds like the left hand is tied behind the back''. I think a bassist must have been arranging.

 

[s0c9]

Some big band charts are annotated ''piano sounds like the left hand is tied behind the back''. I think a bassist must have been arranging.

And in most cases of keys players in local bands that I've shared the stage with.. it ought to be !!

 

[Al T.]

It's always a challenge to share a stage with Mr. Phil Allspace.