Thanks for the explanation and the clips. I really like the sound of those.
Thanks very much for the in-depth descriptions! Enjoy the bass.
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Lakland 44-66 ThunderJazz?
- Thread starter wvbass
- Start date
I haven't been gigging a lot lately. I did a couple fill-in shows with a country band last week, but the situation dictated that I play a five string. So, I haven't really had the opportunity to try out my ThunderJazz in a band setting...
...Until last night. I had a rehearsal with a singer/songwriter/Americana group last night. I have to say, now I understand why a Thunderbird can get away with having just one pickup. In the mix, the neck pickup is really beefy. Fat. Thick. I also see why some people say Thunderbirds are only good for rock. I don't agree, but the tone I was getting sure would work well in a rock setting - kind of like a P bass with an extended low end.
I've noticed the high end is a little muted with these pickups. It is definitely there, but you have to ask for it. This may be more my perception than reality, though. Usually, with a classically voiced bass, I like to use a modern-sounding amp, and vice versa. Here I am pairing a classically voiced bass with a classically voiced amp, and noticing that the top end is muted. Well, duh. I probably should expect that.
At the rehearsal, though, I noticed something else I didn't expect. The bass sat nicely in the mix, but it also sounded great by itself. In my experience, this is a little unusual. I generally gig with jazz basses (or some variation of such), and usually find that the tone that works in the mix isn't always the same thing as the tone that sounds good by itself. Fenders, to my ear, get a little "not pretty" in the upper mids when they are really working well in a mix. That was not the case here. When one of the songs we ran through dropped down to just bass and drums, my ThunderJazz sounded great!
Unfortunately, everything wasn't perfect with my Thunderjazz in a live setting. The neck pickup was great, but the volume difference between the neck and the bridge pickup made the bridge pickup almost unusable. I don't blame the pickups, though; I blame the installer (me). My initial thoughts about this problem were twofold. 1) I have the bridge pickup shifted more towards the bridge than on a Thunderbird. The effect of this is likely to be a loss of low end that could translate to less volume in a mix. 2) I had the neck pickup a bit higher than the bridge pickup. Actually, the neck pickup was a little higher than was comfortable for my right hand. Unfortunately, I didn't have a screwdriver handy to address this last night.
Tonight, I adjusted the pickup height. Right away, I noticed that the Thunderbucker is VERY sensitive to pickup height, more than I have seen before. This is probably a good thing, because, in its higher position, the neck pickup is a lot louder than any other bass I have compared it to. (I have compared it to at least eight other basses, some active and some passive) By lowering the pickup, I might have completely corrected the volume difference. By dropping it down to a more comfortable playing height, the bridge pickup now sounds a little louder than the neck pickup.
I am going to throw a fresh set of strings on it and gig with it on Saturday. And I'll be taking the screwdriver with me!
...Until last night. I had a rehearsal with a singer/songwriter/Americana group last night. I have to say, now I understand why a Thunderbird can get away with having just one pickup. In the mix, the neck pickup is really beefy. Fat. Thick. I also see why some people say Thunderbirds are only good for rock. I don't agree, but the tone I was getting sure would work well in a rock setting - kind of like a P bass with an extended low end.
I've noticed the high end is a little muted with these pickups. It is definitely there, but you have to ask for it. This may be more my perception than reality, though. Usually, with a classically voiced bass, I like to use a modern-sounding amp, and vice versa. Here I am pairing a classically voiced bass with a classically voiced amp, and noticing that the top end is muted. Well, duh. I probably should expect that.
At the rehearsal, though, I noticed something else I didn't expect. The bass sat nicely in the mix, but it also sounded great by itself. In my experience, this is a little unusual. I generally gig with jazz basses (or some variation of such), and usually find that the tone that works in the mix isn't always the same thing as the tone that sounds good by itself. Fenders, to my ear, get a little "not pretty" in the upper mids when they are really working well in a mix. That was not the case here. When one of the songs we ran through dropped down to just bass and drums, my ThunderJazz sounded great!
Unfortunately, everything wasn't perfect with my Thunderjazz in a live setting. The neck pickup was great, but the volume difference between the neck and the bridge pickup made the bridge pickup almost unusable. I don't blame the pickups, though; I blame the installer (me). My initial thoughts about this problem were twofold. 1) I have the bridge pickup shifted more towards the bridge than on a Thunderbird. The effect of this is likely to be a loss of low end that could translate to less volume in a mix. 2) I had the neck pickup a bit higher than the bridge pickup. Actually, the neck pickup was a little higher than was comfortable for my right hand. Unfortunately, I didn't have a screwdriver handy to address this last night.
Tonight, I adjusted the pickup height. Right away, I noticed that the Thunderbucker is VERY sensitive to pickup height, more than I have seen before. This is probably a good thing, because, in its higher position, the neck pickup is a lot louder than any other bass I have compared it to. (I have compared it to at least eight other basses, some active and some passive) By lowering the pickup, I might have completely corrected the volume difference. By dropping it down to a more comfortable playing height, the bridge pickup now sounds a little louder than the neck pickup.
I am going to throw a fresh set of strings on it and gig with it on Saturday. And I'll be taking the screwdriver with me!
- Jul 1, 2005
- 4,291
- 21,932
- 79
- Disclosures
- CataldoBasses: Designer/Builder ThunderBuckerPickups:Consultant
Yes, but no more than original 60s Thunderbird pickups. You've discovered the secret, get the volume you want out of the bridge pickup then match the neck output to it. The vintage spec Alnico magnets like to be closer to the strings than most other pickups.
"Modern" Thunderbird pickups have ceramic magnets and less, heavier gauge wire wrapped around the coils. They cost less to manufacture and sound different.
Each ThunderBucker has two miles of wire in it. Lots of copper and Alnico magnets are the way to go for vintage tone.
I'm pretty sure a new set of strings will improve high end response.
awesome
I've a new Lull PT4 that I was considering trading because it seemed a bit weak. Couldn't get the growl and depth I had remembered fron the old Tbirds. Well, I adjusted the pups quite a bit closer to the strings as mentioned above and WOW! The bass came to life! I've played Fender Jazz basses all my life and if you get the strings to close to the pups you get some weird harmonics and loss of sustain, but with the different type of magnets in the Tbird pups I guess you don't have the harmonics problems of the jazz pups. I'll give it a whirl on a couple of gigs this weekend, but at this point it looks like a keeper for sure. At 7.4lbs it's sure a bass that my tired old back would like to keep and with the new found life it appears I can. So cool what can be learned on Talk Bass!
Dadagoboi said:
I am sure both these statements are correct, and I did not intend my comment to be criticism. It was an observation, nothing more.
I am worried that dropping the neck pickup may change the way it sounds a little too much. If that happens, I do have room to raise the bridge pickup a little. To do that, though, I might have to see if Steve is selling spacers to go under the rings yet. I guess I could cut one myself out of some old pickguard material...might be a fun mini-project.
I am looking forward to this show on Saturday. I finally get to field test this thing, and I'll get to break out the eight-string for a couple songs. Should be lots of fun!
- Jul 1, 2005
- 4,291
- 21,932
- 79
- Disclosures
- CataldoBasses: Designer/Builder ThunderBuckerPickups:Consultant
I didn't take it that way, I'm glad you figured them out. About a month ago I bought a Jaguar bass that a well known 'master builder' had installed a set of ThunderBuckers in. They were set way too low and the bass did not sound good. They're very different pickups than the Fender types he was used to as you've found out.
Steve was running some rings last week so he should have them ready to ship soon.
Look forward to hearing your further adventures with ThunderJazz.
Dadagoboi said:
Tell me something I don't know. I made an offer on that bass only to find out I was about thirty minutes too late!
- Jun 19, 2011
- 18
- 5
- Disclosures
- Owner, builder, brewmaster, bottle washer, Thunderbucker Ranch pickups
This is something I should add to the information page that I ship with every pickup: Yes, the magnetic field strength at the pole on these pickups is a bit less than the strength of a Fender. You might think that is a negative thing, but I don't think so. Fender pickups use very strong tall alnico cylindrical magnets that create a very intense focused field. That is why you can't put them too close to the strings. The magnetic pull actually starts to put false harmonics into the string and hurts sustain. Guitar players even have a name for it "Strat-itis", b/c is is especially bad on the N pickup of a strat. You almost have to set the pickup below the pickguard on the low E side to get rid of it.
Thunderbuckers (and the Gibsons they are copied from) have a shorter alnico bar magnet instead, which makes for a more uniform, though weaker magnetic field. So they respond well to close settings, and don't pull on the strings like a fender when you set them close.
And of course, string motion is less at the bridge pickup, so it can be set quite a bit closer than the neck.
WV... your Lakland was definitely one of the inspirations for my Electra project.
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/electra-longnecker-thunderbucker-=-electra-longbucker-900000/
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f8/electra-longnecker-thunderbucker-=-electra-longbucker-900000/
Thunderbucker said:
I am not finding much of anything negative about your pickups. I agree, their setup requirements seem to be a little different than Fender pickups, but that is just the facts - neither negative nor positive.
I restrung the bass this morning, and, as would be expected, the top end opened up a bit. Herein about five hours, we will see what I think of them on stage. I am taking a Korean neck-through Spector as a backup, but I don't expect it to see much playng time.
Out of curiosity, when you guys say you raise the pickups closer to the strings, what height are you talking? With Fender pickups, I crank them up until the bad things start to happen and then drop them back down just a bit. I expect that my approach means I tend to raise pickups a little more than is typical. (playing other people's Fender basses generally confirms this.)
webelo said:
Glad you posted here. I saw your thread when you first posted, but missed the update. Post final pics!
Btw- you are braver than I am. If I tried a freehand rout, things would get ugly VERY quickly. Heck, I even made a mistake and ruined my first template. The second one got me through it, though.
haha... it was easy for me to be brave when I handed the bass to a vary competent fellow TB'er with a router. When I got the bass back home I did still have to hog a little more wood via the file to the the pup mounted straight.
The pick guard on the other hand was a colossal pain in the but to cut. How did you cut yours?
I wish I had more pics to post. I'm in NY for the weekend, so I'm not able to work on the bass. Next up will be mounting the Fender high mass vintage bridge. I ordered the pots today... I decided to go v/b/t.
The pick guard on the other hand was a colossal pain in the but to cut. How did you cut yours?
I wish I had more pics to post. I'm in NY for the weekend, so I'm not able to work on the bass. Next up will be mounting the Fender high mass vintage bridge. I ordered the pots today... I decided to go v/b/t.
- Jul 1, 2005
- 4,291
- 21,932
- 79
- Disclosures
- CataldoBasses: Designer/Builder ThunderBuckerPickups:Consultant
- Jun 19, 2011
- 18
- 5
- Disclosures
- Owner, builder, brewmaster, bottle washer, Thunderbucker Ranch pickups
I just meant negative in the sense that one might think that the more magnet power, the better. But there are limits where the magnet pull can interfere with the strings. My favorite tele bridge pickup (I'm a guitard in real life) is a Broadcaster replica with the weaker alnico 3 magnets. I think its a little warmer than alnico 5, which is almost double the pole strength.
For height, maybe dada will chime in, but I just get the bridge as high as it will go without the strings hitting, and then set the neck to balance.
- Jul 1, 2005
- 4,291
- 21,932
- 79
- Disclosures
- CataldoBasses: Designer/Builder ThunderBuckerPickups:Consultant
That's about it, I set the bridge pickup first and get the neck equal in volume to it.
webelo said:
I mounted the pickguard to the bass and used the rout in the body as a template.
Thunderbucker said:
Dadagoboi said:
You guys measure like I do. That is exactly how I set mine up. The bridge pickup is pretty amazingly close to the strings and the neck pickup is just a bit lower to balance things out.
Gig report
Okay, I like 'em! The ThunderJazz works pretty darned well on stage. I had a good, round tone that sat nicely under the guitars. I could easily make my lines fall into the background or step out front as needed. They work in the mix AND they sound good! All that and a Lakland neck - a pretty sweet deal, IMO.
The Thunderbuckers are different than other basses. In this bass, they have more low end extension and are thicker in the low end than I am used to. And even with new strings, they are pretty tame on the top end. On my amp, I cut a little lows and a lot of low mids and I really cranked the treble to get the sound I wanted. This is opposite to my normal tone tweaks, but once I did that, I really liked what I was hearing.
As a reference, I have played a ton of shows with SWR amps and either a Kubicki or a Jazz Bass. That setup was probably pretty key to establishing the "ideal" tone I hear in my head. (The low F# on my Kubicki played through my Redhead is the best single note tone ever!). But, with that setup, my basic approach is to try to tame the high end and then push enough lows to get a warm enough sound. Last night, I played the ThunderJazz through an RH750 and Epifani PS112 cabs. Everything in my signal chain was geared towards "old school" tone. It is no wonder that I was cranking the treble knob on the amp!
For some reason, I really think this bass would kill through a GK rig. I may have to see what the MBFusion (or 800) can do for me...
Okay, I like 'em! The ThunderJazz works pretty darned well on stage. I had a good, round tone that sat nicely under the guitars. I could easily make my lines fall into the background or step out front as needed. They work in the mix AND they sound good! All that and a Lakland neck - a pretty sweet deal, IMO.
The Thunderbuckers are different than other basses. In this bass, they have more low end extension and are thicker in the low end than I am used to. And even with new strings, they are pretty tame on the top end. On my amp, I cut a little lows and a lot of low mids and I really cranked the treble to get the sound I wanted. This is opposite to my normal tone tweaks, but once I did that, I really liked what I was hearing.
As a reference, I have played a ton of shows with SWR amps and either a Kubicki or a Jazz Bass. That setup was probably pretty key to establishing the "ideal" tone I hear in my head. (The low F# on my Kubicki played through my Redhead is the best single note tone ever!). But, with that setup, my basic approach is to try to tame the high end and then push enough lows to get a warm enough sound. Last night, I played the ThunderJazz through an RH750 and Epifani PS112 cabs. Everything in my signal chain was geared towards "old school" tone. It is no wonder that I was cranking the treble knob on the amp!
For some reason, I really think this bass would kill through a GK rig. I may have to see what the MBFusion (or 800) can do for me...
