Lakland vs Sadowsky

[wujuu]

real fenders eh? i don't normally like sig. models, but the marcus miller 5 i tried out sounded wonderful

 

[el_Kabong]

However, what I'm arguing is simply that cheap gear will not feel, sound, and perform like more expensive gear.

Well to be fair, up until this post that's not what you were arguing. You were stating that it's 'impossible' for a skilled player to make poor gear sound good.

My $0.02 opinion is the player makes more difference than the gear, given the basic proviso that gear is at least appropiate for the gig, (eg not a 10in combo with a 12 piece funk band). There's the expert touch of the player which you mentioned and to my ear that does indeed make a huge difference. But in addition to 'his single finger alone' a skilled player brings much more to the gig.

Seems to me you are overlooking other areas such as note choice, phrasing, arrangement, awareness of other players, great ear, energy, 'soul', ability to set up an appropriate tone for the tune, etc, etc, etc. Is a player 'good' if he/she doesn't have these skills? Are you saying they don't make a difference? Context is a fundamental in music, these skills can make ordinary gear sound good. Maybe sound so good that you actually forget to notice the tone! That's the player making the difference.

Good gear is nice but the skill and artistry of the player counts for way more than the tools. Believing otherwise is counterproductive imho.

 

[wujuu]

you've gotten way ahead of me with your post kabong!! i wasn't talking about skill and artistry. by "good" i was referring mainly to the tone and perhaps playability/feel, and it is in fact what i have been arguing the entire time. a cheap instrument will sound "good" if played by a skilled player, but...the tone of a cheap p-bass is the tone of a cheap p-bass, not matter who is playing it. yes technically it may sound better depending on the player's touch, but at the most simple and basic level, the instrument is what it is and the player doesn't actually change it. a good player will sound better on a nicer instrument through a nicer amp. my point is much more basic then some of you guys are taking it for, i am not discussing note-choice, energy, etc.


"However, what I'm arguing is simply that cheap gear will not feel, sound, and perform like more expensive gear."

this is pretty much what i meant, i admit my earlier posts were phrased in a way that they were a bit misleading, but if you look at them and think, they really do mean the same thing as the quote above.

 

[el_Kabong]

A skilled touch does not make a cheap bass with cheap pickups through a cheap amp sound good. It's just impossible..

a cheap instrument will sound "good" if played by a skilled player, but....

No offense, but you seem to want it both ways. If the skilled player makes that crap pbass sound good, how is that a 'technical' difference? It's all those skills I mentioned making a piece of sh!te sing.

Sure everyone prefers to play something 'good' to something 'crap'. I just that I think that I'm making a real mistake when I attribute my own inadequacies to my gear. It's that kind of thinking that slows my progress as a musician.

On a completely different subject, never played a Sadowsky but I dig the slap tone and the bridge pickup burp on my 5594.

 

[wujuu]

two different degrees of "good" lol

shoulda explained it better...use your imagination i'm too lazy to explain anymore now..you get the idea--or not

i never attributed a player's inadequacies to gear

lets...get back on topic now...good call

 

[KeithPas]

Yep, that's pretty much how I see it. I agree a lot of the tone comes from the bass and gear, and I've upgraded (although technically my Sadowsky is in OH right now, en route, so I don't even know how much my overall tone will improve). But the bass is certainly not all the tone, as the starter of the discussion stated.

How about atarting another thread once the Sadowsky gets here and do a comaprison to your current bass, and BTW congratulations on getting a Sadowsky someday I hope to get one too.

 

[MikeBass]

Guitar Centers can wreck just about anything given enough time, so I don't think you can blame any of that on the manufacturer.

In any industry, you are only as good as the worst product you let out the door, so I do think it is fair to judge a brand based on a single bass, even though it may not always tell the whole story. In my case, the fit, finish, and acoustic tone of the Lakland Skyline I had was not up to the same standard that I have observed in EBMM's products.

I'm just using your logic here pickles.
Don't blame the shop in this. Sure they can be a factor, but scratchy/non-working pots, loose tuners and a host of other issues. Also I have been there when brand new ones were taken out of the box/case and the necks could not be adjusted.
So by your logic, I shouldn't even consider them at all right?!?

Sorta like saying "I bought a Ford Explorer 10 years ago and it sucked, I'll never buy an Explorer again!"

Oh yeah, I would guess your logic is used by a lot of the general bass playing public. They walk into a shop and pick up a bass, it's not set up right or something isn't tight and they put it back down and walk away thinking they are horrible.

 

[albass111]

Well, I'm late to this thread, but where does this post stand in comparison with other threads in terms of # of posts in 24 hrs??

I have a Sadowsky NYC and a DJ4. For about three months, I played my DJ on 90% of my gigs because I didn't want to bang up my Sadowsky. My DJ has Sadowsky guts in it, (Pre, PU & VTC) and if you AB them, there is NO comparison in terms of quality of tone. Sadowsky believes strongly in that quality of wood = quality in tone and I can back up that claim. These days, I can't keep my Sadowsky out of my hands and I consistantly get the most compliments about tone when I play the Sadowsky.

I'm not trying to compare a DJ to a NYC Sadowsky because they are in completely different leagues.

That being said, check out www.thebasscowboy.com (This guy is one of the best players around!!) Mark has played everything and owned a bunch of basses. He's a Lakland guy now solely because of choice. I had the privilege of playing his USA JO and that bass has serious Mojo. The way I would break it down is that for Jazz Basses, the USA JO really gets the vintage vibe down. (passive) This is a different MO than the Sadowsky basses. I'm a Sadowsky guy, Mark is a Lakland guy.

My DJ has some issues. The binding has discoloration, there is a strange "growth" on my neck. The neck seems like less work went into it. THERE IS NO WAY A DJ MATCHES UP TO A METRO... hence the price difference. That being said, I love my DJ despite her flaws. I actually bought my DJ after talking to Darryl himself about the bass. I will not tell you what brand of bass he was playing the last time I saw him though.

If Sadowsky basses didn't exist, I would own a USA JO and Glaub or maybe even a CS fender. That being said, I'm glad I don't have to worry about that one!

 

[wujuu]

Tell us what he's playing!!

 

[pickles]

I'm just using your logic here pickles.
Don't blame the shop in this. Sure they can be a factor, but scratchy/non-working pots, loose tuners and a host of other issues. Also I have been there when brand new ones were taken out of the box/case and the necks could not be adjusted.
So by your logic, I shouldn't even consider them at all right?!?

Sorta like saying "I bought a Ford Explorer 10 years ago and it sucked, I'll never buy an Explorer again!"

Oh yeah, I would guess your logic is used by a lot of the general bass playing public. They walk into a shop and pick up a bass, it's not set up right or something isn't tight and they put it back down and walk away thinking they are horrible.

You're missing me a little bit ... when I'm saying that I judge a brand on one bass, I mean once you get the setup dialed in to be exactly how you like it, make sure nothing is loose or mal adjusted, etc ... I'm talking about the things that can't be fixed easily like fit, finish, frets, and tone. And its not that they don't get second (and third, and fourth) chances, but with all the choices out there ... I typically just form an opinion and move on, unless I hear that things have improved. I owned the lakland in question for several months, got the action dialed in super sweet, and formed the opinion that the MusicMan basses I've seen and used were better built. I found myself wishing that EBMM would make some P and J clones.

And yea ... if I had a bad explorer, I would certainly not be shopping for another one unless I had some serious evidence that the QC had improved. Its funny you used that example, since a guy I work with bought a new exploder and ended up driving a loaner focus for most of a year while they tried to fix all the problems that beast had.

I'm tripping on you saying you've seen bad musicmans, since I just havn't. I believe you ... but that hasn't been my experience.

 

[Dr. PhunkyPants]

I found myself wishing that EBMM would make some P and J clones.

I'm tripping on you saying you've seen bad musicmans, since I just havn't. I believe you ... but that hasn't been my experience.

DUDE--how come I'd never had that thought before? Wow, man, that would be REALLY tight.

 

[KJung]

DUDE--how come I'd never had that thought before? Wow, man, that would be REALLY tight.

Actually, I assume the new two pickup SR models with the additional J style pickup can get pretty close to a J sound with the back MM pickup in single coil mode.

 

[pickles]

Actually, I assume the new two pickup SR models with the additional J style pickup can get pretty close to a J sound with the back MM pickup in single coil mode.

Not really, to me. All of the positions still pretty much sound like a different take on a Ray ...

 

[MikeBass]

You're missing me a little bit ... when I'm saying that I judge a brand on one bass, I mean once you get the setup dialed in to be exactly how you like it, make sure nothing is loose or mal adjusted, etc ... I'm talking about the things that can't be fixed easily like fit, finish, frets, and tone. And its not that they don't get second (and third, and fourth) chances, but with all the choices out there ... I typically just form an opinion and move on, unless I hear that things have improved. I owned the lakland in question for several months, got the action dialed in super sweet, and formed the opinion that the MusicMan basses I've seen and used were better built. I found myself wishing that EBMM would make some P and J clones.

And yea ... if I had a bad explorer, I would certainly not be shopping for another one unless I had some serious evidence that the QC had improved. Its funny you used that example, since a guy I work with bought a new exploder and ended up driving a loaner focus for most of a year while they tried to fix all the problems that beast had.

I'm tripping on you saying you've seen bad musicmans, since I just havn't. I believe you ... but that hasn't been my experience.

Right on.
I understand what your saying now. I was under the impression that you played one in a shop someplace and "Bada Boom, Bada Bing" -it wasn't up to snuff and you formed you opinion on that one.

Now I understand where your coming from and in part agree with you.

 

[KJung]

Not really, to me. All of the positions still pretty much sound like a different take on a Ray ...

That makes sense, those basses really have a strong voice.

K

 

[Big String]

I'm a big fan of both. Have two NYC Sads and had 7 Laklands.

Both have superb customer service and very good detail to there instruments... plus they are ALL really nice folks!!!!

I've finally ended up with the Sads because I'm not a big Bart fan either, but loved my Joe4 with Lindy Fralins and really miss this bass. Actually I really liked/loved each one. My final preference ended up being a Jazz style bass, active with a 'downsized body' which I could only get from Sadowsky. That's it. Other than minor differences I found both Lakland and Sadowsky instruments to be among the finest on the Planet. You will do well choosing either or both !!!

 

[Dr. Cheese]

Actually, I assume the new two pickup SR models with the additional J style pickup can get pretty close to a J sound with the back MM pickup in single coil mode.

In my opinion, position 2, the next closest to the bridge sounds very Un-Stingray and pseudo-jazzish to my ears. YMMV .

 

[Sundogue]

I guess if a good player can't make cheap gear sound good... that leads me to believe that I can quit practicing, and just buy better gear..

Oh.. and Tom B is the best bass player in the world!!

A good player will not make cheap gear sound good, a good player will just sound better through cheap gear than a lousy player would.

A talented race car driver is never going to win a NASCAR race driving an old LTD station wagon from my past. Will he drive it better than I did? Definitely. Does his driving make my old LTD a better car? Nope...ain't gonna happen.

I agree that most of your tone is in your hands and a excellent player can make do with some pretty awful crap gear. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that it's ALL in your hands.

I seriously doubt Stanley Clark would still sound like Stanley Clark playing on an old, beat up bass with lousy pickups, and a twisted neck, playing through an old Crate head and a beat up old 18", half blown speaker. Would he still play it better than most of us? Yup. Will it sound as good as the gear he normally uses? Nope.

We buy the best gear we can find that suits us best as players. Nothing wrong with that. But if it were ALL in your hands, there wouldn't even be a reason to have as many choices for gear as we do. Some are tangibly better than others. Otherwise we'd all settle for crappy gear and just practice more.

 

[Biker4Him]

A good player will not make cheap gear sound good, a good player will just sound better through cheap gear than a lousy player would.

A talented race car driver is never going to win a NASCAR race driving an old LTD station wagon from my past. Will he drive it better than I did? Definitely. Does his driving make my old LTD a better car? Nope...ain't gonna happen.

I agree that most of your tone is in your hands and a excellent player can make do with some pretty awful crap gear. But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that it's ALL in your hands.

I seriously doubt Stanley Clark would still sound like Stanley Clark playing on an old, beat up bass with lousy pickups, and a twisted neck, playing through an old Crate head and a beat up old 18", half blown speaker. Would he still play it better than most of us? Yup. Will it sound as good as the gear he normally uses? Nope.

We buy the best gear we can find that suits us best as players. Nothing wrong with that. But if it were ALL in your hands, there wouldn't even be a reason to have as many choices for gear as we do. Some are tangibly better than others. Otherwise we'd all settle for crappy gear and just practice more.

Yes.. my logic was twisted.. and ill conceived. It was actually not meant as a statement of my beliefs, but rather as a means to get to the goofy punchline regarding the greatly helpful and invaluable resource of Mr. Tom B.

back to the Lakland/Sadowsky debate.

 

[Sundogue]

Yes.. my logic was twisted.. and ill conceived. It was actually not meant as a statement of my beliefs, but rather as a means to get to the goofy punchline regarding the greatly helpful and invaluable resource of Mr. Tom B.

back to the Lakland/Sadowsky debate.

I was just going to edit my post to say that I wasn't really directly replying to your post in particular, but rather I plucked yours out of the debate.

No one here can honestly tell me that gear doesn't make a difference in how you sound, nor how you play. Anyone who believes otherwise, please tell me what gear you use and why you use that...as opposed to some crap gear. Take a gander at the Bass and Amp forums (or even this thread) and look at all the debates about gear if you believe otherwise. If it's all in your hands, then those two forums ought to be closed.

Every single piece of Equipment we use, from the strings, the pickups, the bass, the cables, amps, speakers, etc. all add up to our ideal of what we want to sound like (tone-wise). How well we can play (through that equipment) is determined by our dedication to practice.

Practice will never make crap gear sound like great gear. It will only allow you to sound as good as you possibly can through a given piece of equipment.