Double Bass Lavaliers and DB

[Bassmensch]

Hi everyone,

as I was reading about DB amplification here in the forums I began meandering through various PU/amp-manufacturers websites and ended up at a site where a magnetic PU was shown that was mounted at the end of the fingerboard.
I somehow thought initially that it had a lavalier mic added to mix and match,
but it didn't,
but the idea stuck.
It would be a pretty much invisible and elegant method to mic a DB.

There are a bunch of cardioid lavaliers out there,
anyone here tried mounting one beneath the fingerboard, or elsewhere?
Successful?
Or am I just completely off track with that idea?


Thanks in advance for your ideas and insights,

All the best,
Bassmensch

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Lavaliers are made for speech. So they are far from being linear. Cardioids are not the best soundwise for nearfield double bass pickup, a uniform or hypercardioid characteristic sounds better. So for recording, I would prefer these types, for playing live the cardioid types might reject a little bit more of the surrounding noise and feedback than the uniform one.

Did you read about the special DPA 4099 for double bass and the AT 350 and AT 35 Pro?
Search the forum and read what they can and can't be used for.

Magnetic PUs and microphones are on opposite sides of a scale of recorded or pickup sound.

Jörg

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I experimented with an ATM35 mounted between the bridge feet. Omitting the mounting system I strung a long rubber band around the feet and suspended it about an inch above the top pointed directly to the top. It worked well but I rarely used it so it went back in the box. Several cuts on my last CD were recorded that way and the sound lacks something compared a big diaphram condenser out front. A mic can be nice in the right situation but in a live setting I prefer just using a pickup.

 

[Bassmensch]

Hi Jörg,
thanks for your reply.

OK, let me give some background to my question.
I'm mainly a guitarist, happen to play in a bigband.
Three years ago our bassist (BG) dropped out, and I took over the bassists seat, starting with DB, as I had some weeks preparation time to build stamina.
(I played cello for a bunch of years, so the technique was adoptable.)
I paused playing for 18 months now, cause I was very busy and did not have the time to keep my fingers trained,
and changed to BG.
Now I want to get back to the DB, as it is more fun.
I have inherited a astonishingly good sounding cheapo bass,
use a Fishman Cello pick up (P-100) into my trusty AER Compact 60, which worked OK with the 3MOhm Input,
which I now upgraded with francis HPF-Pre to 10 Meg, which is a huge win and works pretty well now.
So,

Lavaliers are made for speech. So they are far from being linear.

My Setup as above, what bugs me most is the weird sounding string handling noise, which is overtly loud and in your face with the bridge piezo.
Also it is too direct, in time domain, as opposed to acoustic or mic'ed bass, in my ears.
Now, I have no parametric at hand, but I guess this string noise happens at about 1,5-2 kHz,
which is right in the spectrum of a lavalier.

I get enough fundamentals from the Fishman and the HPF-Pre, but for gigging some less fake overtones would be cool.
If you have a look at the anthem guitar pick up by L.R.Baggs,
they have a mic and an under saddle transducer and a crossover at 200 HZ.
I have no Idea how they got away with that without audible phasing,
but for a similar bass setup one could use a pick up, a small mic that does not have too see too much LF to reduce feedback inclination,
and an electric PU with a lav would be a small, unobtrusive and elegant package.

Cardioids are not the best soundwise for nearfield double bass pickup, a uniform or hypercardioid characteristic sounds better. So for recording, I would prefer these types, for playing live the cardioid types might reject a little bit more of the surrounding noise and feedback than the uniform one.

I can't see anything but feedback hell coming from an omni on stage.
Hypercardioids seem difficult to get as lavaliers,
on a quick search.

Did you read about the special DPA 4099 for double bass and the AT 350 and AT 35 Pro?
Search the forum and read what they can and can't be used for.

I got it on my wish list,
as it seems to work really well on guitar as well (Utube) and it is polka proof (Utube as well)
It seems to be a shotgun design though,
which makes sense, feedback wise.
(There seem to be different versions with different sensitivities or different bass roll of, iirc,
I'll check that before ordering.)
But this has to wait a few months...

Magnetic PUs and microphones are on opposite sides of a scale of recorded or pickup sound.

Yep,
but they should complement each other quite well.

All the best,
Bassmensch

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

My advice is to possibly switch to a Full Circle or Realist pickup and concentrate on getting a big sound out of the DB. It takes a long time to learn to get a big, warm sound out of the bass.

 

[GrowlerBox]

I've experimented with an omnidirectional lav mic. The tone reproduction was actually very good, as there is no proximity effect, but bleed and feedback are clearly major issues. Blending a very attenuated mic signal with the piezo provided some nice detail, but was ultimately not worth the hassle.

 

[DoubleMIDI]

Hi Bassmensch,

you won't win anything mixing the pickup with the mic frequency separated or not against the pure mic.

The point is getting as close as possible to a loud source of bass sound with the mic, so the amplification factor could be low (more of your bass and less other noises) and put the bass amp speaker away, high if possible and not directing towards the bass to get a weak feedback to the mic (reducing the feedback amplification factor).

Directionality is not so much relevant since you move your bass while playing. It is relevant to reduce bleeding of other sources into your mic.

I used the four rubber ring microphone mounting method described elsewhere in this forum to mount my Oktava MK-012 and tried the omni, cardioid and hypercardioid capsule directed between the bridge legs about 1 to 2 cm above the bridge. I monitored what was ging into the mixer by headphone. The omni had the best sound, closely followed by the hypercardioid. The cardioid had a coloured sound that I didn't like too much but was acceptable.

The ATM 35 (old discontinued version) I got a few weeks ago is not bad, more feedback resistant than the Oktava, so I might use it for quieter groups when a lottle bit of amplification is useful or for PA and probably for recording.

You will never get a pure double bass sound out of an amp. Even the speaker colours the sound and you cannot eliminate that. So try to get a stage amp sound so you can hear yourself and the others on stage can hear you too. A Full Circle is not bad for that if mounted correctly.

The Fishman 100-series is a rather bad pickup, at least very close to the sound of the string itself. You can try to mount your fishman with some wood strips into te bridge wings and see if this gets a better sound. (Equalization is still needed.)

The further you go from the top of the bridge towards the top plate of your bass with your pickup the less direct it sounds. But on the plate itself it might sound a bit too distant. So a Full Circle, a Balsereit or a Wilson K1 in the top middle of the bridge foot might have a well balanced sound between string (punch) and top plate (resonance).

BTW for the big band you don't need a mic for stage sound. It might be fine for the PA to get a better sounding source. You will need some punch at the start of the note for the big band, so a Realist might not be the best solution and a bridge top or bridge wing pickup might have a bit too much mids (reduce them a bit) and highs (put them completly down on your amp). Either stay quieter in the big band or get the volume from your fingers or use a pickup. The whole band would bleed into your mic and get amplified too.

The strings are also important, I would prefer gut, Spiros, Dominant, Obligato or Innovation 140H, not orchestral strings or Evah Pirazzi (both too dark sounding and some with little sustain) for the big band.

Jörg

 

[Bassmensch]

It takes a long time to learn to get a big, warm sound out of the bass.

No doubt.
A good acoustic tone is the starting point for anything else.


Jörg,
thanks for your time and your patience.

Directionality is not so much relevant since you move your bass while playing. It is relevant to reduce bleeding of other sources into your mic.

I used the four rubber ring microphone mounting method described elsewhere in this forum to mount my Oktava MK-012 and tried the omni, cardioid and hypercardioid capsule directed between the bridge legs about 1 to 2 cm above the bridge. I monitored what was ging into the mixer by headphone. The omni had the best sound, closely followed by the hypercardioid. The cardioid had a coloured sound that I didn't like too much but was acceptable.

Dunno if it's a good thing to extrapolate from one mic alone,
the capsules could sound pretty different on other sources as well.
But I don't think that omnis are a viable option, as I tend to stand pretty much right beside the drumset,
so I'll end um reinforcing much more snare and cymbals than bass.

You will never get a pure double bass sound out of an amp. Even the speaker colours the sound and you cannot eliminate that. So try to get a stage amp sound so you can hear yourself and the others on stage can hear you too. A Full Circle is not bad for that if mounted correctly.

The Fishman 100-series is a rather bad pickup, at least very close to the sound of the string itself. You can try to mount your fishman with some wood strips into te bridge wings and see if this gets a better sound. (Equalization is still needed.)

I use a 100 Series Cello PU, and the sound of that is astonishingly good,
to my ears. It works well in the mix.

The further you go from the top of the bridge towards the top plate of your bass with your pickup the less direct it sounds. But on the plate itself it might sound a bit too distant. So a Full Circle, a Balsereit or a Wilson K1 in the top middle of the bridge foot might have a well balanced sound between string (punch) and top plate (resonance).

That sounds reasonable.

BTW for the big band you don't need a mic for stage sound. It might be fine for the PA to get a better sounding source. You will need some punch at the start of the note for the big band, so a Realist might not be the best solution and a bridge top or bridge wing pickup might have a bit too much mids (reduce them a bit) and highs (put them completly down on your amp). Either stay quieter in the big band or get the volume from your fingers or use a pickup. The whole band would bleed into your mic and get amplified too.

FWIW I did some purely acoustic rehearsals in the past,
and it seems to most of all a problem of transient placement to cut through acoustically.
If you come just a slight idea early in time, you'll be noticed, but not felt out of time.
The PU is more for monitoring on acoustically cumbersome stages or FOH.
I might as well end up using a PU for monitoring and give PU and mic seperately to FOH...

The strings are also important, I would prefer gut, Spiros, Dominant, Obligato or Innovation 140H, not orchestral strings or Evah Pirazzi (both too dark sounding and some with little sustain) for the big band.

I replaced the E and A with Pirastro The Jazzer, which I like in my uneducated naivety, and probably will do so with the D & G as well,
as they are still what they were as I got the Bass...

Thanks for your guidance,
I will let that sink in and see where my journey will carry me...
All the best,

Bassmensch