LDS 112 Coax SuperLight

[vision]

Ken's wife Katie could probably left it with one hand, although Ken still uses two.

lol!!!

 

[greenboy]

Cool Ken! Any chance you can compare the sound to an EA Wizzy?

Hey Ken, Hope you don't feel stepped on but I just love coaxes so I hope you don't mind if I litter the thread with suppositions ; }

tallboy,

Ken's LDS is going to have extended and smooth treble way up into the region the best cabs with tweeters have, it's not going to have a modified old school sound. I would also guess that it reaches not quite as low but probably compensates by having a midbass many will prefer.

Ken, did I pass the audition? : }

 

[tallboybass]

Hey Ken, Hope you don't feel stepped on but I just love coaxes so I hope you don't mind if I litter the thread with suppositions ; }

tallboy,

Ken's LDS is going to have extended and smooth treble way up into the region the best cabs with tweeters have, it's not going to have a modified old school sound. I would also guess that it reaches not quite as low but probably compensates by having a midbass many will prefer.

Ken, did I pass the audition? : }

No offense Greenboy, I'd rather hear Ken's comparisons than your suppositions....I know what a tweeter sounds like.

 

[greenboy]

No offense Greenboy, I'd rather hear Ken's comparisons than your suppositions....I know what a tweeter sounds like.

No offense taken, I figure Ken will have plenty to share... it is pretty obvious that having a quality tweeter will take the top well beyond what a Wizzy does.

 

[4Mal]

At what frequency did he cross ? ' and at what slope ? If hte 12 going full range with a hi pass filter on the tweet or is it actually crossing ? lo-pass to the 12 and hi pass to the tweet ...

That is a real cool looking driver. I've been eyeballing that one in the PE catalog. I can picture it, along with the 6.5" mid in a medium sized box being a very hi-fi alternative.

 

[KJung]

Hey guys!

Lot's of questions.

First, regarding where it is crossed over, etc.... I haven't a clue. Greenboy is obviously correct that this 12 has much more high end extension than the Wizzy with no tweeter. I obviously haven't directly compared the LDS to the Wizzy, but I am sure this particular LDS has less low end extension... due to the Wizzy's TL design, which extends the low end, and to the fact that I specified a very small cab from Don.

Regarding the Mini12+, yeah, that's not my favorite cab. This particular LDS is much more even, more low end, and a much more integrated, smoother sound from the tweeter.

This might be the nicest sounding tweeter I have ever heard, no clank whatsoever..... but much more present and crisp than a soft dome type... more similar to the Epi tweeter, but with a somewhat softer edge to it.


NOTE: The cab I spec'd out probably doesn't do the speaker justice... again, I had a special application in mind for this cab. I would guess if you add 4" or so to the depth it would perform much better in the low end.

 

[KJung]

Hey Ken, Hope you don't feel stepped on but I just love coaxes so I hope you don't mind if I litter the thread with suppositions ; }

tallboy,

Ken's LDS is going to have extended and smooth treble way up into the region the best cabs with tweeters have, it's not going to have a modified old school sound. I would also guess that it reaches not quite as low but probably compensates by having a midbass many will prefer.

Ken, did I pass the audition? : }

I like the coax thing too.... besides the space saving, it really does seem to help the tweeter integrate into the general tone of the cab. In some ways, it is a shame to put an amazing speaker like this into the little, tiny cab.

I am thinking about a 2x12 cab, with the same B&C coax neo and a second non coax B&C 12. I'm thinking of a box similar to the Wayne Jones 2x10.... vertical (speakers not offset, but in a vertical array), maybe 15" width by 18" depth and about 26" tall. That might be an amazing small cab.... 800 watts rms, and my guess is under 40 pounds.

 

[KJung]

KJung-
That is very cool. I myself have been thinking about getting an LDS 1x12. I'm very interested to hear all about it! Will you be playing upright through it all?

Hello Nathan. I do not play DB. However, after I've played with this a while, I'm going to ship it to my buddy Will (Wilbyman) who will give it a good tryout with his DB and Focus.

The tweeter on this cab is smooth and very sweet sounding, but still might be too much for a DB. However, we will let Will decide on that in a few weeks.

 

[Michael Vee]

If you ever decide to do that compact coax 15, I found a very light driver for you, Ken - complete with waveguide (that's good!).

This BMS driver is rated 97 dB sensitivity 1W/1m. One would need a reasonably powerful amp to push it.

That's the beauty of the Bag End S15X-D- it may not be the lightest or the lowest, but it is small, and quite loud with just a nominal amount of watts. (103 dB sensitivity 1W/1m)

Also for consideration- There is the Eden CX-110 coax cab that is tiny and very lightweight, 98 dB, sounds great, goes low, handles 200 watts with ease. And it's a lot less expensive new than the BMS/LDS custom cab would be. So other than not being a 15", and not handling the wattage the BMS would, it has most all the same attributes desired.

 

[KJung]

[Invalid or Expired Link Removed] 97dB sensitivity 1W/1m = need for a powerful amp to push it.

That's the beauty of the Bag End S15X-D- it may not be the lightest or the lowest, but it is extremely loud with just a nominal amount of watts.

That's the trade-off. Since there are so many 500+ watt small amps now, moderate inefficiency to get more low end out of a small cab has become a more reasonable trade-off recently. Also, the lack of a tweeter attenuator on the Bag End, combined with the moderately heavy weight of that cab, makes an LDS box with either the speaker Greenboy found, or the B&C 15 coax quite an interesting option IMO if you are looking for a small 115 box.

 

[alexclaber]

This BMS driver is rated 97 dB sensitivity 1W/1m. One would need a reasonably powerful amp to push it.

That's the beauty of the Bag End S15X-D- it may not be the lightest or the lowest, but it is small, and quite loud with just a nominal amount of watts. (103 dB sensitivity 1W/1m)

Also for consideration- There is the Eden CX-110 coax cab that is tiny and very lightweight, 98 dB, sounds great, goes low, handles 200 watts with ease. And it's a lot less expensive new than the BMS/LDS custom cab would be. So other than not being a 15", it's everything the LDS custom would be.

Before judging it on the numbers, consider that the BMS sensitivity spec is accurate whilst the other cabs' specs are inflated. And then also bear in mind that these BMS drivers have lower distortion than most.

Alex

 

[Michael Vee]

That's the trade-off. Since there are so many 500+ watt small amps now, moderate inefficiency to get more low end out of a small cab has become a more reasonable trade-off recently. Also, the lack of a tweeter attenuator on the Bag End, combined with the moderately heavy weight of that cab, makes an LDS box with either the speaker Greenboy found, or the B&C 15 coax quite an interesting option IMO if you are looking for a small 115 box.

We've discussed some of this about the Bag End cabs previously. How much of a problem is presented by the omission of an attenuator depends on the bass and amp tone controls you have available. Any player with more than very basic high frequencies controls can roll off the highs, if needed, without needing to do so on the cabinet itself. The highs on the S15X-D are present, but not prominent- they are well-balanced because the main driver is so efficient. It's not like the old 2x10 designs with a Foster horn- those cabs HAD to have an attenuator because the horn was considerably louder than the low drivers.

Alex and KJung- I'm not arguing against the BMS/LDS design at all. Having someone like Don Oatman doing these custom cabs gives the modern player a lot of choices and the ability to get a cabinet far removed from the majority of companies' products. I'm looking forward to reading more about these LDS cabs.

 

[KJung]

We've discussed some of this about the Bag End cabs previously. I think the Bag coax design depends on the controls you have available. Any player with more than very basic high frequencies controls on the bass or amp can roll off the highs without needing to on the cabinet. The highs on the S15X-D are present, but not prominent- they are well-balanced because the main driver is so efficient.

+1 I like that cab a lot. However, turning down the treble control on a typical amp or active bass is quite different from attenuating the tweeter, since that typically sucks some upper mids out of the cab along with the upper treble sheen.

I can't see anything positive about having a relatively aggressive tweeter like the Bag coax without an attenuator. It wouldn't be a deal killer for me, but it sure is a negative. Can't quite figure out why they haven't put one in after all these years.

That being said, it's not a problem at all IMO when using the S15d and S15xd as a stack. That sounds very nice and balanced to me. However, I do think the tweeter can get 'in the way' when using a single s15xd if you have a relatively aggressive bass and use SS roundwounds.

Great cabs though... I would view the B&C/LDS version a significant improvement though, from what I've heard with my little 112 so far... lighter, lower, more control of the top end, and the ability to have that very nice spray on coating.... of course, you'd pay a little more... but not that much.

IMO of course.

 

[Michael Vee]

You do respect the Bag End cabs, as a former user.. and what you are doing with the LDS custom is basically extending and improving upon the original Bag End design. I'm glad you are enjoying the LDS cab.

 

[greenboy]

First, regarding where it is crossed over, etc.... I haven't a clue.

It's probably at 1.5 KHz; B&C actually has a crossover for this driver which is designed specifically for that. This is not your father's Fostex. Sonically, going from woofer to tweeter it's a seamless integration with no gap, no dependence on woofer beaming before the tweeter starts its contribution - an octave or more below where other bass cabs are crossed over. That's a huge qualitative step for a 2-way bass cab!

It's bound to be a high quality sound for another reason as well: it's a Single Point Source. So the image doesn't blur at frequencies around the crossover, no weird phasing overlaps, no multiple-source lobing. Coaxes can as a result sound very natural, very accurate, not going to play games with one's perceptive sense of sound delivery so bad.

NOTE: The cab I spec'd out probably doesn't do the speaker justice... again, I had a special application in mind for this cab. I would guess if you add 4" or so to the depth it would perform much better in the low end.

I wouldn't lose any sleep over that ; } - Very small difference there anyway.

 

[Michael Vee]

It's bound to be a high quality sound for another reason as well: it's a Single Point Source. So the image doesn't blur at frequencies around the crossover, no weird phasing overlaps, no multiple-source lobing. Coaxes can as a result sound very natural, very accurate, not going to play games with one's perceptive sense of sound delivery so bad.

Well said, greenboy, that's why the S15X-D and the CX-110 are both excellent sounding cabs.

 

[KJung]

Well said, greenboy, that's why the S15X-D and the CX-110 are both excellent sounding cabs.

+1... it was my liking of both those cabs that led me to this design.... I wanted a little smaller than the S15x-d, and a little louder and deeper than the CX-110. All great stuff!

 

[greenboy]

This BMS driver is rated 97 dB sensitivity 1W/1m. One would need a reasonably powerful amp to push it.

That's the beauty of the Bag End S15X-D- it may not be the lightest or the lowest, but it is small, and quite loud with just a nominal amount of watts. (103 dB sensitivity 1W/1m)

There is no fifteen in existence that in a normal vented (or sealed) cab will make 103 dB at say 40-500 Hz - you are looking at the typical inflated cab marketing figure, probably predicated on the tweeter not being fully padded down to match the woofer.

The BMS figure on the other hand is raw driver data, is relatively accurate and reflects more the real world of fifteens that are woofers (and not low-midrange drivers). Actually the BMS is a pretty good example of trading not too much efficiency off in order to achieve bass extension in a small cabinet. On top of that it, does it with lower weight than other neo 15 coaxes currently available.

 

[trainyourhuman]

Ken

The cab "sounds" awesome. Can't wait to hear/play it! Congratulations.

 

[greenboy]

Actually Bag End did achieve something of note with their coax cabs. Unfortunately maket pressures to make cheap cabs have not favored further R&D for coax bass cab designs. Here Ken and Don at LDS have taken a bold step. I highly recommend that anyone considering having a cab built investigate some of the neo coaxes being built and to consider commisioning designs. Not only will might you get a smaller, lighter box - you'll get a design with greater coherency and may even achieve a deeper flatter more extended response than has been customary.

Kudos!