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Learning and memorizing bass lines...
- Thread starter barrywomb
- Start date
Barry,
Glad you've been finding some helpful advice here.
Question: What do you mean when you say you "wrote down the SCALES for those chords"?
Suggestion: I find that using tab/chord chart actually makes it take LONGER to learn/memorize a song. Since you have a good ear, I wager you'll find it to be the same. When you go through the process of figuring out a tune by ear, you'll internalize it, and it will stick in your memory. When learning a song using a chart I find it goes in one ear and out the other--good for running down a song on the fly but not for really learning it.
Latitude- It was more for the exercise than anything else, just because I hadn't done it and I'd actually like to learn my scales so that if I ever have to improvise, I'll know what the heck not to play. Now, having said that, when figuring out stuff, I don't usually think "Okay, this is a C#m chord, so I need to play a C#m scale over it". I should, but just never have. I've always found C#m and then figure out the notes I need there, hitting clams all along the way while figuring it out. Writing it out told me "Oh yeah, don't play this note over that chord". Granted, I KNOW this, but because I don't think about scales and theory and stuff, I just hunt around till I find what's right. I do not chart songs out or anything. I figure it out and just keep doing it.
Having said that, I very much envy guitarists and other musicians that can walk into a gig (say a cruise ship gig, I dunno) and sight read their parts. I have never been disciplined enough (and I have a lot of self discipline) to learn that. In fact, I've learned the notes many times, but it's always the timing of the notes (what's a quarter note, what's a half note, etc.) that has killed my desire to take that skill to a decent level. The timing part is always where I trip.
Having said that, I very much envy guitarists and other musicians that can walk into a gig (say a cruise ship gig, I dunno) and sight read their parts. I have never been disciplined enough (and I have a lot of self discipline) to learn that. In fact, I've learned the notes many times, but it's always the timing of the notes (what's a quarter note, what's a half note, etc.) that has killed my desire to take that skill to a decent level. The timing part is always where I trip.
Hi, Barry,
Hopefully, it's just a semantic issue, but in case it isn't:
When playing a C#m chord, you wouldn't play a C#m SCALE (unless the song was in the KEY of C#m).
Each chord would get the chord tones of that specific chord, which are comprised of notes from the scale of the key the song was composed in. So if the song was, for example in B, and you were playing over a C#m chord, (the second note of the scale) you would play the notes of a C#m arpeggio (1-b3-5, if just sticking with triads--so C#-E-G#, but not necessarily in that order). If the chord progression then moved to an F# (which is likely, since it would be a ii-V progression, F# being the fifth note of the scale) you would play the notes of an F# arpeggio (major this time, so 1-3-5; F#-A#-C#).
A lot of musicians dont read music, which I guess is what you mean by sight read. In a lot of cases,
mine included is you get a sheet of lyrics showing chords over the lyrics. I think if you put a little time
into it you would find basic theory pretty easy. Once you learn an arpeggio shape, you can just move the position for a different chord. I think you may be overthinking it a bit and its overwhelming you. I
started by learning to read music, but once I got someone who understood some basic theory I was off and
running. I don't read music anymore, I don't have a need for it. I have never been very good at pulling bass lines off records or what have you. I learned my arpeggios, some scales, and then I joined a band
and improvised most everything I played. Unless its a lick based song with a repeating line, its actually easier and more fun to figure out what you want to play on your own. Once you know most of the major progressions that you will run into then you need the key and type of progression for a given song. So lets say key of G and its a 1,4,5, progression. That tells me its based on the Gmajor scale, and the three chords I will encounter
are Gmaj, Cmaj and Dmaj. You can use the Gmaj arpeggio then walk up to Cmaj using the notes of the G
maj scale. So go from G to G# as a passing chromatic note to A and then B and Finally C for the next chord. I don't know, this is how I learned. I just put myself into a situation that I had to learn or get out.
Pressure is a great motivator, but don't overthink it and cause yourself to freeze up.Just learn to relax and use what you know and build from there. Sorry if i'm rambling,i'm at work right now and i'm really tired! Hope I gave you something useful. And don't forget their is a ton of resources available online to
help you, something I didn't have when I was learning. Good luck!
mine included is you get a sheet of lyrics showing chords over the lyrics. I think if you put a little time
into it you would find basic theory pretty easy. Once you learn an arpeggio shape, you can just move the position for a different chord. I think you may be overthinking it a bit and its overwhelming you. I
started by learning to read music, but once I got someone who understood some basic theory I was off and
running. I don't read music anymore, I don't have a need for it. I have never been very good at pulling bass lines off records or what have you. I learned my arpeggios, some scales, and then I joined a band
and improvised most everything I played. Unless its a lick based song with a repeating line, its actually easier and more fun to figure out what you want to play on your own. Once you know most of the major progressions that you will run into then you need the key and type of progression for a given song. So lets say key of G and its a 1,4,5, progression. That tells me its based on the Gmajor scale, and the three chords I will encounter
are Gmaj, Cmaj and Dmaj. You can use the Gmaj arpeggio then walk up to Cmaj using the notes of the G
maj scale. So go from G to G# as a passing chromatic note to A and then B and Finally C for the next chord. I don't know, this is how I learned. I just put myself into a situation that I had to learn or get out.
Pressure is a great motivator, but don't overthink it and cause yourself to freeze up.Just learn to relax and use what you know and build from there. Sorry if i'm rambling,i'm at work right now and i'm really tired! Hope I gave you something useful. And don't forget their is a ton of resources available online to
help you, something I didn't have when I was learning. Good luck!
Not quite. Sight reading is reading through a sheet of music the first time. And it is true that there are a lot of musicians who don't read music, but there are also a lot of musicians who can read music and lie about it so they don't lose cool points, and if you took a sampling of people who can play music without reading vs everyone who tried to play without reading and failed, I think it would be statistically very small. You I would consider a reader, and even though you don't do it anymore, I'm sure it helped you to better understand how music is made.
It's surprising, but I can still find the notes but have trouble with the syncopation. And true I spent the first year or two reading music only before I started learning theory and that was end of it for me anyway. And in my case most of the people I have played with are self taught and have no idea how to read beyond a chord chart. At least that's what they say anyway! I bet if I dug a little deeper some would admit that they had some training to read in school band on different instruments as a child! But off the top of my head I can't think of anyway that I played rock or blues who had any formal training beyond a few barre chords passed on by friends or other players. A lot of the guys I know would spend hours with a record player learning licks off of records. I however was not one blessed with the patience to learn like that! But it's limiting in the fact you don't know why your playing what you learned, so it's more difficult to come up with your own stuff! But yeah I know plenty of guys who don't know a bass clef from a treble clef! And yes you are right the formal training helped a lot in understanding and absorbing theory and finding my way around a fretboard. Not sure how I feel about tab. I haven't used it so I can't speak from experience.
I like to burn a CD when doing covers, I got the Tascam Bass Trainer, plug my bass into all my rack effects then go into the Bass CD Trainer last, then headphones. Keep the songs in the same order as when you play live doing your sets. Jam with the music nice and loud like its really happening, when your done practicing and you go to bed at night put your headphones on listen to your set list CD and fall asleep when you wake up it should be in your head. Play the music out loud around the house, driving around it will put a stain in your brain then..And practicing with your band over and over I find to be the best way. Good luck and KEEP ROCKIN!!!!
in this situation I would gladly play a A# locrian scale over that C#m chord, just like I would play C#m scale if it goes where I want
I know the notes on the bass. I know guitar chords. But by sight on the neck, not by reading it. I mean, if I see sheet music with a C or Am over the staff or chord diagrams, I know what that is. But to see a piece of music, sans-chords listed above the staff, and I'd have a hard time. I'd LOVE to be able to look at a piece of music and play it. Just as something to be able to do.
As for learning rock tunes, yeah, I've done that forever with tapes, records, cds, mp3 players, etc. Just trying to find quicker ways to cement the tune into my brain. As I get older, this gets more difficult - also, I was in one band for a very long time that played out all the time. A few more bands have been added to that, so now I'm constantly learning tunes. It's a lotta work but it's fun. Just looking for ways to make it quicker and get it into my brain faster. Having a music stand at the gig is not something I want to do. I find that's always worse.
As for learning rock tunes, yeah, I've done that forever with tapes, records, cds, mp3 players, etc. Just trying to find quicker ways to cement the tune into my brain. As I get older, this gets more difficult - also, I was in one band for a very long time that played out all the time. A few more bands have been added to that, so now I'm constantly learning tunes. It's a lotta work but it's fun. Just looking for ways to make it quicker and get it into my brain faster. Having a music stand at the gig is not something I want to do. I find that's always worse.
I normally get paid with food - the BD takes us out for a night on the town several times a year, or we eat free before the gig, seldom do I see real money. As a "semi-pro" I don't mind having a music stand, or I-pad or even sheet music on the floor or on top of my amp. When they pay money I leave the sheet music at home. Without my sheet music I'm jamming, i.e. nothing fancy, generic bass lines and find a groove The drummer and I furnish harmony and rhythm. The other guys get the melody.
Now to a quick way -- if I have the fake chord sheet music, lyrics and chord names shown, and someone is singing the tune, I can wing a bass line on stuff I have never heard before. That's pretty quick. Here is how this happens:
- First I've been playing rhythm guitar and bass for let's just say a long time, using what I outline below.
- Following the lyrics - reciting along with the vocalist - the fake chord tells me the chord I need and when to change chords.
- I get the beat from the drummer, and if no drummer I rely upon the vocalist to give me the BPM. Once that is established it is then up to me to maintain that beat.
- See a chord coming up and I compose the bass line I'll use in this song. 90% of the time it's going to be root on beat one. From there the song will dictate if more is needed. If so a five followed with an octave 8 will normally get the job done. Later after I've played this song several times, I'll have a better feel for what bass line fits this specific song and it's here that the correct 3 and 7 can enter into my bass line. It is amazing how roots, fives and eights let you play a lot of bass. Course to pull this off you still need to know when the chord changes happen.
Experiment on ways to have your sheet music on stage - top of your amp in a 3 ring binder perhaps. Lot of the guys now use I-pads.
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I'm new to bass and see the term "fake chord" here. I'm an educator and I know that, despite the cliché, there is such a thing as a dumb question and maybe this is one of those - but what is a fake chord?
Fake chord as in fake chord sheet music Invalid Link Removed
Follow the chords. First time through it helps if you have someone singing the song so you have a feel for the pulse, timing of the song.
Skip the intro for now. First verse starts with a C chord. Grab a C note and do C's to the beat until the Em chord comes up. OK grab an E note and pedal it till the F chord comes up. Yes at the next C chord change over from the F to the C. Notice when pounding roots that Em chord got just an E note. If I was going to include more of the chord notes in my bass line it is here that the b3 (minor note of the chord) could come into what I'm doing, but when pounding roots just pound roots.
If no one is singing I would recite the words under my breath so I would have an idea when to change chords. Normally fake chord sheet music is one note (beat) per lyric syllable. The words "Some - where" and "o -ver" both would get two beats or notes. The word "the" would get one beat and "rain-bow would get two beats, etc. Yep you are given the lyrics and the chords and you fake the rest...
Play in two bands, one Country and the other Praise. We use fake chord sheet music for everything we do. In fact the Praise band director ask me, when I ask if he had an opening for a bass player; "Do you play from fake chord?" and when I said yes, that was all that was necessary, no audition needed.
Have fun.
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Gotcha - I think that I have been doing this already using a program called Invalid Link Removed. It's helped me a great deal. Thanks, Rick
Thanks for this, being the one of the few serious bassist in my island, I could never talk much bout bass to anyone. Thanks for confirming my observation that the low notes on bass clash (dissonant) easier than the guitars high register. Seems like you have to be more accurate on bass scale/mode wise specially landing on the wrong notes. IMO
As many have said already...repeat it over and over. I play in a church band and by the time its the actual weekend to play the songs live I'm almost sick of playing it because Ive played it over and over during the week. It is a good feeling though because you can enjoy playing live (improvising) and not stress about trying to remember the pattern or progression.
I jumped on this string for more ideas on memorizing more intricate bass lines and reminded my self of a little trick I discovered by accident. I play and sing back up in a cover band. It's a pretty decent sized band. With the horn section we can easily be 8-10 people and I find, as a bass player I am trying to keep tabs on everyone so the more I have my part cold the better. There are a few tunes that we transpose the key to help the singers out, and I have found that the the songs I do that for, the more they are committed to memory. A good example is "I Want You Back" from the Jackson 5. The recording is in Ab, but our singer is not 5 years old! LOL! It's too high, so we transposed to F. Not a super complicated part, so over the course of a couple of days I transposed in my head visually while showering. I don't think the shower is integral to the trick. Writing works, too. We transposed "Band of Gold" and I wrote that part in a new key in standard notation. That works. I know I'm there when I can visualize myself playing the line w/out music. Now, off to "Miss You" This song, for whatever reason, I have not been able to memorize. I've listened to it since I was a kid (I'm 51), and have been playing it in this band for nearly 4 years and am lost without the sheet music. I think I've been over reliant on sheet music for some tunes.
