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Learning scales

#124
chadgrimes said:
U dont need a scale u just learn notes. For example, in guitar when u teach someone to play an F chord u teach them the chord and the Notes UNDER THEIR FINGERS. It's harmony! When I was in harmony class u talk about harmony not scales.
Same with bass, u teach students notes to learn to read and then u teach chord tone arpeggios and teach them to know what's under their fingers.
Click to expand...

Sorry to come back in.....but you do not.
Chad you seem to fail on so many levels when you talk music and theory. You seem to only be able to apply your theory to one area of music, that is not learning music.

You also use bizarre terms, such as triad arpeggios, chord tone arpeggios, its like you do not know what an arpeggio is, or what happens when you arpeggiate notes.

You also say one thing very clearly, your original premise about learning scales, then you deny it, by saying we are missing the point.
But anyone I have ever met, worked with or knowing, that teaches, lectures or demos, gets the point over easy, because they have learned from experience what the point is.......you it seems cannot.
If I am mis-understanding your posts, then I certainly would be mis-understanding your teachings and logic behind them

Please do not get me wrong you are on the right lines, but you have a very lousy way of trying to make your point, the David Bowie analysis was comical verging on the absurdly obvious.
I would, and I mean this with sincerity, learn to appreciate world music and experience what music means and how it works in other cultures not just in your own area or culture......many cultures write music from scales, then get this, harmonise it.
They do not all start with chords, some start with lines (melodies) then harmonise them, in my culture (Scotland) you will find Scottish folk songs are scaler in construction, so the harmonisation of them can be I IV V and cover most of its harmony.....a bit like Blues.
So what came first, the melody or the harmony?

Classical music for example uses pedal point, so how do you use chord tone in relation to pedal point?
Now do you decide whether a scaler bass line was harmonised or the the bass line was based on the chords?
What about counter melodies, if chord tones are used then how do we decide what the melody is that is to be used, and what becomes of passing tones if it modulates in to a new key? If the certain passing tones now become chord tones, and what were chord tones now become passing tones how do we separate and explain that with out a key?
I learned that a key is related to a scale which had set notes, notes that did not change, notes that were specific to that key...chords are not specific to keys, they are specific to harmony...If I want to to look at it in that context?

If you believe that using only chord tones show things clearer, then you really do not understand the concept of learning.

I can us3 numb3r5 1n5t3ad 0f l3tt3r5 and yu0 st1ll 533 th3 m3an1ng 0f what I write.

Your brain separates the information and take from it what is needs based on experience, then matching up what it has already learned, it works out the information.
So seeing chord tones within a scale is not hard, if you take the time to learn correctly you just see them in context.

The problems you see are not with music, but how it is taught, and you seem to be advocating diluting it down even more, removing more information to make it relevant to a fad or a genre....that may not be around in five years or ten years...or worse still your teaching gets diluted again.
You use the term musicians for people that are not musicians, they are players, not musicians.
If you hire musicians you get propel that can read, play and understand music, if you hire players you get people that can play tunes. People that play tunes do not need any music theory, so you should really not confuses them, or use them to make points that really do not apply to musicians.

Like I said you are on the right tracks, but you get as much wrong as you get right...in my eyes, but maybe that's the way you and your brother do things in Lebanon PA, but I find it works better to teach music.
Here is a thought, a standard good music theory book is about 250 pages.....the size of a small paperback, but what you can do with that information fills libararies, its application is where the real theory is.

But if what you do works for you, then good luck with that:)

p.s. you have a condescending attitude where you assume things you should not. Without understanding the credentials or qualifications of those you preach to, you assume you know better or are in the right.:)

p.p.s. condescending means, acting in a way of patronising superiority.:)

p.p.p.s. patronising means what I just p.p.s ed ;)
 
#125
Groove if I'm walking over a Bb7 chord I have Bb D F Ab as my strong choices to walk and if I move to a C major chord I might B as an approach note to C or use D to step into the C or the Bb to walk ino C. I look to emphasis the chord tones of each chord and walk into the next chord by approach notes.
 
#133
chadgrimes said:
Groove if I'm walking over a Bb7 chord I have Bb D F Ab as my strong choices to walk and if I move to a C major chord I might B as an approach note to C or use D to step into the C or the Bb to walk ino C. I look to emphasis the chord tones of each chord and walk into the next chord by approach notes.
Click to expand...

A walking bass built exclusively on chord-tones is theorically correct but very, very boring.
 
#134
I've been watching this thread for a few days now and I have to say it's been great entertainment!!

If I may, Chad, what about modal jazz? That music is dominated by scales. You would say that Miles was using approach tones, chromatic lines and arpeggios and others would say (Miles included) that he was using a scalar approach.

And you *can* use the 4th over a major chord if it resolves quickly enough. In fact, if you are soloing over one chord (Dmaj7 for example) for 12 bars, much like a modal tune like 'Milestones'would do, playing a 'g' could provide tension and then resolving it to 'a' (the 5th) would sound pleasing...

Just my 2 cents..

Figured I'd get in on a candidate for best thread if 2013 :D
 
#135
Epic fail here, my friend. The CHORD! serves to represent a tonality that supports the melody. Some melodies require significant key changes, which moves the dominant notes. Your task as a bass player is to connect the tonalities with a musical phrase. Scales are your friend, They help to illustrate the tonal differences you must navigate.
chadgrimes said:
Again, its not Perceived around scales it is seen around the CHORD!
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#139
chadgrimes said:
Joe when u say scales r your friends I hear Carol Kaye, Pat Metheny, and every Jazz great laughing their heads off.
Here is a question....how many musicians here even know how to play all the chord tone arpeggios?
Click to expand...

Not me. But, I do know how to play the two major scales in the chorus of The Man Who Sold the World. It's those darn 98% of chordal intergalactic tonality of scalability that are eluding me. Are you just pulling our legs? OP is a noob, asked a specific question, then gets this. Really? :D
 

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