Learning Songs vs. Learning Music

[PlatoFunFactory]

I can learn to cover a bass line in an hour or so and be ready for rehearsal with my classic rock band. I don't use chord charts or tabs, I'll just play the song an octave higher so I can can hear the bass well enough and learn by ear.

Holy crap, man! Why have I never tried this before? Just did it with a bass line I've been wanting to learn and the ease of picking it out is like night and day.
I know this wasn't the point of this thread, but thanks!
By the way, I did the shift with Audacity. What do you use to pitch it up?

 

[Govner22]

Holy crap, man! Why have I never tried this before? Just did it with a bass line I've been wanting to learn and the ease of picking it out is like night and day.
I know this wasn't the point of this thread, but thanks!
By the way, I did the shift with Audacity. What do you use to pitch it up?

I use Anytune, an app that has a free version that works for me. (Damian Erskine provided a great reply (as usual) on notreble.com when I asked about this, so you might look for that too.). It does make a huge difference as I can not only learn faster but better appreciate how awesome some of these lines are.

 

[jamro217]

Try breaking your practice sessions into two parts: broccoli and ice cream. Broccoli represents the sometimes boring world of learning theory. It's good for you and will make you grow strong. After a healthy dose of broccoli you've earned a big bowl of ice cream. This represents the fun part of practice where you can experiment with slapping techniques, unusual tunings, scales and modes you don't often play, and just improvising. Always start with the theory first, and when that's still fresh in your mind the other things you play will make sense. I'm not sure what the reason for this is, but it seems to work. One of the most overlooked parts of being a good bassist is timing. Whether you're playing root five for hours or attempting the most challenging fusion ever, make sure the first beat of every measure is on time every time. Hope this helps.

 

[Ulf_Hansson]

I use Anytune, an app that has a free version that works for me. (Damian Erskine provided a great reply (as usual) on notreble.com when I asked aubout this, so you might look for that too.). It does make a huge difference as I can not only learn faster but better appreciate how awesome some of these lines are.

Great tip, a simple trick that is easy to forget.

 

[addicted]

I use Anytune, an app that has a free version that works for me. (Damian Erskine provided a great reply (as usual) on notreble.com when I asked about this, so you might look for that too.). It does make a huge difference as I can not only learn faster but better appreciate how awesome some of these lines are.

I used to struggle hearing the bassline too when I started. And this tip to raise the song pitch an octave (or 12 semitones) REALLY help. Some people call it 'cheat' but I think as long as it gets the job done and I am still training my ear, I am good. I often discover missing notes or delicate articulation that I misses when I listened at original pitch. Sometimes I tune it back to original pitch too to train my ear what those 'muddy riffs' actually are.

Anyway, back to your question. I see your problem as being practical vs being ideal. When I began, I practice more of my fretting, my plucking, and my ear just good enough to be able to learn a song in sufficiently short amount of time. I am still nowhere good with my dexterity or my ear sensitivity and still practicing those along with music theory. However, I am forced to keep learning songs to keep up with my 2 on going bands. So I'd say, it's not that learning a song is wrong, but learning music could help you to get further in learning song.

 

[GwenOnBass]

Improvisation requires knowing, and I mean knowing;

1. The melody - The first and most important thing is to know the melody. The melody is what people sing and what is tattooed on people's brains for decades.
yesterday... all my troubles seemed so far away. A solo that relates to the melody will be more easily digestible to the audience.

All sound advice.

Curiosity lead me to open my Real Book to Yesterday. I'd never played it, actually, and well color me surprised. This ain't no one chord vamp ... the changes are pretty "advanced" (e.g., there are a lot of changes) to start improvising. IMO. It's a great melody to learn though. Just not the first melody in the RB to start with. Were it me, I'd start with learning the melody and changes for Michele, if sticking with Beatles tunes.

 

[Gravedigger Dav]

When you get the time, instead of just learning the parts by ear, try to figure out WHY they played what they played. Get an actual chord chart for the song and see how the bass line weaves in and out of it from chord to chord.

One of the best things you can master in music theory is transitions. You'll notice that the notes many bassists use don't just fit the chord you're in, but they sound great moving into the next chord. I tell people all the time that James Jamerson and John Paul Jones taught me how to play bass. Nobody does transitions better than Jamerson in soul and Jones in rock.

You'll go further faster if you stick to subject matter you love. To pick apart bass lines from songs that are already your favorites. "Do the math" on WHY they played what they played over certain chords and how they made it sound cool as crap moving to the next.

Have fun with it or it will bore you to death.

+ 1 to this. I will add that as you do this study, compare the transitions from song to song and you will start seeing transitional patterns emerge.

 

[Ant Illington]

I've learned to play hundreds of songs over the years. Seperately, I know diatonic theory well, and even some advanced stuff.

I suspect that if I really learned and picked apart (reverse engineered as someone said) 10 of the best songs I've learned to play, I would be a much better musician. This is what I am trying to work on while learning my next hundred songs.

If you have the time (no deadlines) then take the time to learn each song deeply before moving on. It will pay off down the road since you will know "the rules," of which there are relatively few, behind what's being played rather than endeavoring to learn by mechanics an almost infinite number of possible combinations ("pushing buttons," I think you called it). I'm not sure I said that clearly but I hope you get my drift.

 

[micguy]

Try breaking your practice sessions into two parts: broccoli and ice cream.

I get the message, but I'm diabetic (don't eat ice cream), and I really like broccoli. So the analogy doesn't quite work for me. If you were to use use bacon in the analogy. then I'm in.

 

[jamro217]

QUOTE="micguy, post: 19129475, member: 193323"]I get the message, but I'm diabetic (don't eat ice cream), and I really like broccoli. So the analogy doesn't quite work for me. If you were to use use bacon in the analogy. then I'm in.[/QUOTE] Fair enough. Actually bacon is traditionally a breakfast food, so it's logical that it would be first. I guess the second practice segment would have to be more along the lines of sugar free chocolate tort sweetened by raw stevia. That might work.

 

[Govner22]

Thanks for all the great feedback. I've reverse engineered a few songs I know and I see a few themes at this early stage such as:

If I work out which chords are the I, ii, iii, IV, V etc in the key, the mode that corresponds to the chord being played contains the notes used in the line. A basic concept but one that's not applied if I just learn by ear. This makes it easier to create my own lines instead of just copying the original. Even more simple, to me some of the best sounding notes are just the same note played in a different octave the next time around. Not much music theory required for that one.

Just scratching the surface so far obviously but it looks like reverse engineering songs I know is the next step for me in the journey.

 

[Nickweissmusic]

I can learn to cover a bass line in an hour or so and be ready for rehearsal with my classic rock band. I don't use chord charts or tabs, I'll just play the song an octave higher so I can can hear the bass well enough and learn by ear.

The problem is I often feel like I'm not learning musical concepts this way. Maybe subconsciously I am but I often feel like I'm just "pushing buttons". So I separately work on music theory: chord tones and scales in various positions, inversions, avoiding "root note fixation" etc.

This is a big question but: how do I connect these two processes? I'd like to create something I can call my own and improvise on stage so it's not just a mechanical process. Again, big question but any thoughts appreciated.

Learn theory, not just scales and chord inversions What you are doing is a great start, you're doing important physical work and and you NEED those basics to understand what "theory" is really all about. It's about understanding tendencies of chord progressions, and the function of chords in said progressions. In rock, there is a pretty limited set of cliche progressions. If you were to start by analyzing your band's setlist, I guarantee you'd find similarities in their structures that you didn't notice before, even in songs with completely different keys, feels and styles. Are you aware that "With or without you" by U2 and "Basketcase" by Green Day literally share the same chord progression? They're not exactly the same song, you'd have to do a little more work to get the details ironed out on Basketcase, but at least 50% of the work could already be done before you pick your instrument up. If you knew enough cliches and had a way of categorizing them, your learning time would eventually decrease. How soon? No idea, months to start putting into use, years to refine, I'm still getting better at it. But if you're already accurately figuring songs out on your own, your ear will accelerate things immensely. So what I would say is, specifically seek out a teacher that can help you understand rock chord structure and progressions so you can learn songs faster.

What you're already doing, as far as figuring out a song in an hour, is pretty darn good. If you "already knew where the song was going" before you played a note, it would go even faster

 

[Govner22]

Learn theory, not just scales and chord inversions What you are doing is a great start, you're doing important physical work and and you NEED those basics to understand what "theory" is really all about. It's about understanding tendencies of chord progressions, and the function of chords in said progressions. In rock, there is a pretty limited set of cliche progressions. If you were to start by analyzing your band's setlist, I guarantee you'd find similarities in their structures that you didn't notice before, even in songs with completely different keys, feels and styles. Are you aware that "With or without you" by U2 and "Basketcase" by Green Day literally share the same chord progression? They're not exactly the same song, you'd have to do a little more work to get the details ironed out on Basketcase, but at least 50% of the work could already be done before you pick your instrument up. If you knew enough cliches and had a way of categorizing them, your learning time would eventually decrease. How soon? No idea, months to start putting into use, years to refine, I'm still getting better at it. But if you're already accurately figuring songs out on your own, your ear will accelerate things immensely. So what I would say is, specifically seek out a teacher that can help you understand rock chord structure and progressions so you can learn songs faster.

What you're already doing, as far as figuring out a song in an hour, is pretty darn good. If you "already knew where the song was going" before you played a note, it would go even faster

Yes, applying the Roman numeral system has helped me more quickly learn the transitions but you're right in saying I could be doing much more of this. This could help me improvise as well as learn the song faster. (That Axis of Awesome video about how many songs have the same progression is cool.) I'll bring this up with my teacher who will certainly be able to help. Thanks for the advice!

 

[leftiebass]

Improvisation requires knowing, and I mean knowing;

1. The melody - The first and most important thing is to know the melody. The melody is what people sing and what is tattooed on people's brains for decades.
yesterday... all my troubles seemed so far away. A solo that relates to the melody will be more easily digestible to the audience.

2. The chord changes and how the melody relates to the chords that are being played underneath. What generally sounds good is a solo (or melody) that flows bar to bar in a logical, mellifluous way, connecting the chords. Listen to the song "Misty" by Erroll Garner. This one played by the man himself:



Try to hear the melody and chords working separately, yet together, to create a sound that is absolutely beautiful.

3. Once you have those down, learn and internalize the scales that sound well with their respective chords, especially dominant scales.

There are only 3 functions of a chord/scale: major, minor, and dominant. Dominant chords/scales also include diminished and augmented chords/scales. If you know how these chords/scales work together to produce and resolve tension, your audience will never be bored.

There are many books on these concepts but my bible for the last eight years has been Mark Levine's THE JAZZ THEORY BOOK. From the beginning it will take you from the basics to the heights of improvisational creativity in an easy to understand way.

Tried working with Levine's book. Looks great but I have a really hard time because all of the examples are written in the major clef. Took a lot of work for me to work with the bass clef and switching to major is tough. Is there one like this that shows the samples in bass clef (actually written for bass players)?

 

[Sav'nBass]

Learning music is learning two things: learning the rules, and learning the repertoire.
Learning the rules doesn't teach the repertoire; learning the repertoire doesn't teach the rules.
If you are learning songs, you're on your way to half the picture.
If you are making the effort to learn the rules, you are on your way to the other half.

Not only that... Once you start to work on the rules you will find the songs taking on an entirely different flavor.

Try breaking your practice sessions into two parts: broccoli and ice cream. Broccoli represents the sometimes boring world of learning theory. It's good for you and will make you grow strong. After a healthy dose of broccoli you've earned a big bowl of ice cream. This represents the fun part of practice where you can experiment with slapping techniques, unusual tunings, scales and modes you don't often play, and just improvising. Always start with the theory first, and when that's still fresh in your mind the other things you play will make sense. I'm not sure what the reason for this is, but it seems to work. One of the most overlooked parts of being a good bassist is timing. Whether you're playing root five for hours or attempting the most challenging fusion ever, make sure the first beat of every measure is on time every time. Hope this helps.

I like that.

For a long time all I did was learn songs ... Around 6 or 7 years ago I started to look more at the music part.. partly because I would read some posts here and have a limited or non existent understanding of what was being said.... I found that just learning modes alone opened up a whole different world because the chord tomes come out of the modes...... If I had started doing g this when I first started playing I would be a much better player today but even at this late stage in the game it has helped me.

 

[jamro217]

Not only that... Once you start to work on the rules you will find the songs taking on an entirely different flavor.



I like that.

For a long time all I did was learn songs ... Around 6 or 7 years ago I started to look more at the music part.. partly because I would read some posts here and have a limited or non existent understanding of what was being said.... I found that just learning modes alone opened up a whole different world because the chord tomes come out of the modes...... If I had started doing g this when I first started playing I would be a much better player today but even at this late stage in the game it has helped me.

It's never too late to learn and grow.

 

[Sav'nBass]

So true...

 

[5544]

No amount of theory knowledge is going to make you a better player if you don't have proper technique.

Learning other people's songs forces you to learn and use different techniques.

If you think I am wrong, pick up a clarinet and apply the theory that you already know and make original music.

 

[JimK]

Here's my example of "Learning Songs" vs. "Learning Music"-
In the '90s, my then gal-pal (now wife) wanted to learn bass.

She wanted to learn songs so she could join a band.
So, I taught her songs...she's a little OCD, so she would shed the notes/songs all night. Next day, perfect.
She did play in a band in a short matter of time. I rarely heard her make a mistake.

That said-
Ask her to jam on a 12-Bar Blues? Play a Shuffle? Improvise a Funk groove?
Not gonna happen...

 

[BAG]

When my kids started playing guitar from 7 years old I was determined that they learn music rather than just learning songs, which is all I did for the first 20 years of guitar playing before learning some scales and theory.
I had them improvising in the first few months and now at 13 and 16 years old they can jam and improvise without thinking too much about it.

It's the difference between playing an instrument and "playing music".