Learning Songs vs. Learning Music

[Govner22]

I can learn to cover a bass line in an hour or so and be ready for rehearsal with my classic rock band. I don't use chord charts or tabs, I'll just play the song an octave higher so I can can hear the bass well enough and learn by ear.

The problem is I often feel like I'm not learning musical concepts this way. Maybe subconsciously I am but I often feel like I'm just "pushing buttons". So I separately work on music theory: chord tones and scales in various positions, inversions, avoiding "root note fixation" etc.

This is a big question but: how do I connect these two processes? I'd like to create something I can call my own and improvise on stage so it's not just a mechanical process. Again, big question but any thoughts appreciated.

 

[bigboy_78]

After you’ve learnt a song, or a concept. Look for the idea in stuff you know..


Basic Blues shuffle = scale tones 1,3,5,1 etc.

Give the chord changes numbers = I IV V, now play it in a few different keys using those numbers

Name the relationship of each note in a lick to the underlying chord. =harmony is G7, so the lick is b9,7,9,b5,5,6** (**made up random, not an actual lick)


Stuff like that.

 

[two fingers]

When you get the time, instead of just learning the parts by ear, try to figure out WHY they played what they played. Get an actual chord chart for the song and see how the bass line weaves in and out of it from chord to chord.

One of the best things you can master in music theory is transitions. You'll notice that the notes many bassists use don't just fit the chord you're in, but they sound great moving into the next chord. I tell people all the time that James Jamerson and John Paul Jones taught me how to play bass. Nobody does transitions better than Jamerson in soul and Jones in rock.

You'll go further faster if you stick to subject matter you love. To pick apart bass lines from songs that are already your favorites. "Do the math" on WHY they played what they played over certain chords and how they made it sound cool as crap moving to the next.

Have fun with it or it will bore you to death.

 

[dreamadream99]

Learning music is learning two things: learning the rules, and learning the repertoire.
Learning the rules doesn't teach the repertoire; learning the repertoire doesn't teach the rules.
If you are learning songs, you're on your way to half the picture.
If you are making the effort to learn the rules, you are on your way to the other half.

 

[Jloch86]

Improvisation requires knowing, and I mean knowing;

1. The melody - The first and most important thing is to know the melody. The melody is what people sing and what is tattooed on people's brains for decades.
yesterday... all my troubles seemed so far away. A solo that relates to the melody will be more easily digestible to the audience.

2. The chord changes and how the melody relates to the chords that are being played underneath. What generally sounds good is a solo (or melody) that flows bar to bar in a logical, mellifluous way, connecting the chords. Listen to the song "Misty" by Erroll Garner. This one played by the man himself:



Try to hear the melody and chords working separately, yet together, to create a sound that is absolutely beautiful.

3. Once you have those down, learn and internalize the scales that sound well with their respective chords, especially dominant scales.

There are only 3 functions of a chord/scale: major, minor, and dominant. Dominant chords/scales also include diminished and augmented chords/scales. If you know how these chords/scales work together to produce and resolve tension, your audience will never be bored.

There are many books on these concepts but my bible for the last eight years has been Mark Levine's THE JAZZ THEORY BOOK. From the beginning it will take you from the basics to the heights of improvisational creativity in an easy to understand way.

 

[Ulf_Hansson]

Improvisation requires knowing, and I mean knowing;

1. The melody ...

2. The chord changes ...

3. Once you have those down, learn and internalize the scales that sound well with their respective chords, especially dominant scales...

Great answer.

And to the OP, try to find a situation where you could jam around originals or your own versions of songs (without caring about what is played on a specific recording). Have fun with the music, finding out what you think sounds good and not. Find your voice.

 

[Govner22]

When you get the time, instead of just learning the parts by ear, try to figure out WHY they played what they played. Get an actual chord chart for the song and see how the bass line weaves in and out of it from chord to chord.

One of the best things you can master in music theory is transitions. You'll notice that the notes many bassists use don't just fit the chord you're in, but they sound great moving into the next chord. I tell people all the time that James Jamerson and John Paul Jones taught me how to play bass. Nobody does transitions better than Jamerson in soul and Jones in rock.

You'll go further faster if you stick to subject matter you love. To pick apart bass lines from songs that are already your favorites. "Do the math" on WHY they played what they played over certain chords and how they made it sound cool as crap moving to the next.

Have fun with it or it will bore you to death.

Thanks, those are probably my two favorite bassists and I think you've hit on why that is.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

I play with an ear person that does combine what you are asking about. He plays what is written, however, he will improvise if it adds to the song. Joe is on rhythm guitar and will play "in another voice" from the lead vocalists who is also playing rhythm guitar as he sings. He also will take a lead break playing chord melody. Both of those "things" have little to do with improvising and more to do with augmenting the written score.

So in a nut shell Joe, is playing from fake chord what is written, but, can and will augment the written score when needed. IMO, that takes a bunch of theory time and experience. Now on to bass things....

How much improvising will your band mates want from the bass. IMO improvising is for lead soloes, bass lines should call attention to the root. That does not mean pounding out just roots, but, root first then compose the rest of the bass line with some of the other chord tones as dictated by the song.

Then to your question; "how do you connect these two processes?" Well I do not know about your band, but, mine is not looking for me to do a lot of improvising. They want me calling attention to the roots being used and hitting the chord change dead on. A well placed run or fill is OK, if it does not step on someone's toes. But, we all should be following the chord chart as passed out.

So connecting these things has to take into consideration what the director wants to see from each of the members. The point I'm having trouble making is some time improvising is great and then other times it just gets in the way.

Back to runs and fills; IMO these are added, not improvised, i.e. added at rehearsal. Nothing good happens when two people take off on a improvised run a couple of seconds apart. If you have a run or fill ask for that space in the song to belong to you.

At home do improvise things and then take them to rehearsal to see if they fit with what everyone else is doing. That's the point I'm trying to make about how you combine the two. Theory study for what could be done, then try it out with the rest of the band.

 

[lfmn16]

You may find it easier to apply theory to songs you are playing if you actually write out the songs you are playing.

 

[brianrost]

After you’ve learnt a song, or a concept. Look for the idea in stuff you know..

Exactly.

Theory is based on "standard practice". That is, people looked back at hundreds of years of music...Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, Debussy, Stravinsky, etc. to figure out what was being done and how it worked. More recently, people have studied jazz to understand how it extended from classical music.

You can do the same thing by analyzing lines you have learned and understanding how they fit into the harmony.

A lot of my practicing currently is based on this, either sight reading or learning lines by ear, transposing them into all 12 keys and analyzing how they work.

Back to runs and fills; IMO these are added, not improvised, i.e. added at rehearsal. Nothing good happens when two people take off on a improvised run a couple of seconds apart. If you have a run or fill ask for that space in the song to belong to you.

This is where musical communication comes into the picture. When you have played with someone for a long time you get used to where they will do fills, what kind of fills they will do, where they will place accents, etc. Their vocabulary, if you will. This is most obvious with drummers (I play differently with every drummer I play with), but should eventually expand to anyone you play with. It's always a good idea to work out some of this in advance, but half the fun of playing is when the whole band lifts off and goes somewhere new with a tune.

Real improvisation involves listening on a deep enough level that you hear what everyone is actually playing and can adapt to that in your own playing. Many people first think of improv as just the pitches of the notes, but it's perhaps even more critical to be able to improvise rhythms.

The way you really learn to do this is to jam, jam and jam some more with as many people as you can.

 

[Govner22]

I play with an ear person that does combine what you are asking about. He plays what is written, however, he will improvise if it adds to the song. Joe is on rhythm guitar and will play "in another voice" from the lead vocalists who is also playing rhythm guitar as he sings. He also will take a lead break playing chord melody. Both of those "things" have little to do with improvising and more to do with augmenting the written score.

So in a nut shell Joe, is playing from fake chord what is written, but, can and will augment the written score when needed. IMO, that takes a bunch of theory time and experience. Now on to bass things....

How much improvising will your band mates want from the bass. IMO improvising is for lead soloes, bass lines should call attention to the root. That does not mean pounding out just roots, but, root first then compose the rest of the bass line with some of the other chord tones as dictated by the song.

Then to your question; "how do you connect these two processes?" Well I do not know about your band, but, mine is not looking for me to do a lot of improvising. They want me calling attention to the roots being used and hitting the chord change dead on. A well placed run or fill is OK, if it does not step on someone's toes. But, we all should be following the chord chart as passed out.

So connecting these things has to take into consideration what the director wants to see from each of the members. The point I'm having trouble making is some time improvising is great and then other times it just gets in the way.

Back to runs and fills; IMO these are added, not improvised, i.e. added at rehearsal. Nothing good happens when two people take off on a improvised run a couple of seconds apart. If you have a run or fill ask for that space in the song to belong to you.

At home do improvise things and then take them to rehearsal to see if they fit with what everyone else is doing. That's the point I'm trying to make about how you combine the two. Theory study for what could be done, then try it out with the rest of the band.

Thanks, I agree an occasional fill generally works better than unbridled improv. I'm looking to add to a line in subtle ways that keep it interesting.

 

[1stnamebassist]

Try taking the theory you are learning to figure out why the guys or gals playing bass on songs you have learned are doing what they do. Basic theory should include major and minor scales, Chord tones of major,minor, diminished and augmented and other chord types, as well as basic understanding of chord progressions. Armed with that it should all start coming together for you.

 

[BritishLoyalist]

This is a wonderful thread!

 

[BAG]

Try playing with some backing tracks that have no bass in them.
Since getting into fretless only a few weeks ago i've been doing this a lot and it has helped not only with my intonation but also with improvisation. The patterns I know on fretted obviously work on a fretless but using different arpeggio patterns and scale tones to what I would normally use gives a very different feel on the fretless.

This youtube dude going by the handle of QuistJam has some good ones and below the video (click the "show more" bit) he has recommendations on what scales and arpeggios to try.

 

[mambo4]

how do I connect these two processes?

Don't just learn to execute a bass line, you have to reverse engineer it.
Below is process I outlined in another thread.

My approach to studying a song (once you learn to play it)

Using staff paper, write a chord chart for the song.
For every bar note what chord or chords are used.
Mark the verses/ choruses etc to understand the overall structure

Identify the key of the song (and / or current sub section )

Break the bass line into small riffs (maybe 1 or 2 bars), and for each riff:

• Identify the chord or chords being supported and how they relate to the key (is this the I, the IV, V7? etc)
• Identify each note as an interval relative to the song key ("this note is C, it is the 6th of the song key Eb" )
  
• Identify each note as an interval relative to the root of the current chord ("this note is C, the chord is Ab, the G is the major third" )
  
• Examine which notes are chord tones, and which are not.
• Examine which notes appear to be outside of the key or chord: why do they work?
• Try to notate the rhythm exactly
• Try to transpose the chord's riff to a different root note, same chord flavor
• Try to transpose the chord's riff 'too high' or 'too low' so that it forces you to swap octaves on certain notes.

The most crucial thing to understand is how the bass line supports the motion of the chords.
Most music starts on the I, moves away form it, through a bunch of chords, and then resolves back to the I.
The bass line is outlining this journey mostly via root notes.
Instead of thinking of a riff as a map of string / fret locations, or as a linear series of pitches,
you want to see it as "supporting a I-iv-ii-V" or "I-IV-I-V"

It might sound meticulous (and it is at first : my old copy of Standing in the Shadows of Motown has tons of little numerals penciled under the notation, identifying intervals)
but after a while the patterns become ingrained and you can more quickly learn what is going on "under the hood" of a bass line.

(If you don't understand those roman numerals, see page 11 of the Eowyn's Theory Basics PDF link in my signature)

 

[Govner22]

Don't just learn to execute a bass line, you have to reverse engineer it.
Below is process I outlined in another thread.

My approach to studying a song (once you learn to play it)

Using staff paper, write a chord chart for the song.
For every bar note what chord or chords are used.
Mark the verses/ choruses etc to understand the overall structure

Identify the key of the song (and / or current sub section )

Break the bass line into small riffs (maybe 1 or 2 bars), and for each riff:

• Identify the chord or chords being supported and how they relate to the key (is this the I, the IV, V7? etc)
• Identify each note as an interval relative to the song key ("this note is C, it is the 6th of the song key Eb" )
  
• Identify each note as an interval relative to the root of the current chord ("this note is C, the chord is Ab, the G is the major third" )
  
• Examine which notes are chord tones, and which are not.
• Examine which notes appear to be outside of the key or chord: why do they work?
• Try to notate the rhythm exactly
• Try to transpose the chord's riff to a different root note, same chord flavor
• Try to transpose the chord's riff 'too high' or 'too low' so that it forces you to swap octaves on certain notes.

The most crucial thing to understand is how the bass line supports the motion of the chords.
Most music starts on the I, moves away form it, through a bunch of chords, and then resolves back to the I.
The bass line is outlining this journey mostly via root notes.
Instead of thinking of a riff as a map of string / fret locations, or as a linear series of pitches,
you want to see it as "supporting a I-iv-ii-V" or "I-IV-I-V"

It might sound meticulous (and it is at first : my old copy of Standing in the Shadows of Motown has tons of little numerals penciled under the notation, identifying intervals)
but after a while the patterns become ingrained and you can more quickly learn what is going on "under the hood" of a bass line.

(If you don't understand those roman numerals, see page 11 of the Eowyn's Theory Basics PDF link in my signature)

Great roadmap, I'm using it already. Thanks!

 

[INTP]

Don't just learn to execute a bass line, you have to reverse engineer it.
Below is process I outlined in another thread.

My approach to studying a song (once you learn to play it)

Using staff paper, write a chord chart for the song.
For every bar note what chord or chords are used.
Mark the verses/ choruses etc to understand the overall structure

Identify the key of the song (and / or current sub section )

Break the bass line into small riffs (maybe 1 or 2 bars), and for each riff:

• Identify the chord or chords being supported and how they relate to the key (is this the I, the IV, V7? etc)
• Identify each note as an interval relative to the song key ("this note is C, it is the 6th of the song key Eb" )
  
• Identify each note as an interval relative to the root of the current chord ("this note is C, the chord is Ab, the G is the major third" )
  
• Examine which notes are chord tones, and which are not.
• Examine which notes appear to be outside of the key or chord: why do they work?
• Try to notate the rhythm exactly
• Try to transpose the chord's riff to a different root note, same chord flavor
• Try to transpose the chord's riff 'too high' or 'too low' so that it forces you to swap octaves on certain notes.

The most crucial thing to understand is how the bass line supports the motion of the chords.
Most music starts on the I, moves away form it, through a bunch of chords, and then resolves back to the I.
The bass line is outlining this journey mostly via root notes.
Instead of thinking of a riff as a map of string / fret locations, or as a linear series of pitches,
you want to see it as "supporting a I-iv-ii-V" or "I-IV-I-V"

It might sound meticulous (and it is at first : my old copy of Standing in the Shadows of Motown has tons of little numerals penciled under the notation, identifying intervals)
but after a while the patterns become ingrained and you can more quickly learn what is going on "under the hood" of a bass line.

(If you don't understand those roman numerals, see page 11 of the Eowyn's Theory Basics PDF link in my signature)

This is great, and a very thorough way to approach learning a song. I do something similar, but don't do every step every time. It depends on the song and how it's written/played. Still, doing it explicitly for several songs will really help you get the theory. As you do it more and more, these things kind of jump out at you because you'll have a foundation of music theory to work from.

FWIW, today I played through some cover tunes that I like to keep at the ready. As I played them, I found myself doing many of these things automatically. Even though I've played them many times in the past, I noticed harmonic connections that I had not previously noticed. I hope I'm not fooling myself, but I like to think that means my effort in learning theory is paying dividends....

 

[StyleOverShow]

Just to add a little perspective, you know a lot of the theory intuitively from your experience. There are many players who can read, know the theory behind it and have beau coup trouble playing w/o a chart let alone improv.

Learn a little, learn a lot, it all helps.

For my money it's about capturing the feel of the tune, then if the band is willing, altering the vector and making it their own. Thats when the magic starts

 

[mambo4]

As you do it more and more, these things kind of jump out at you because you'll have a foundation of music theory to work from.

Indeed. As you continue to reverse engineer things you like, you internalize the ideas, patterns and their underlying theory.
The analysis process builds and increases speed over time.

Eventually , you get to this level:

 

[INTP]

Eventually , you get to this level:

I'm constantly inspired by Anthony. I'm nowhere near where he is, but personal experience plus demonstrations like this can certainly hint at what is possible. Thanks for sharing this video.