learning to play the piano

[1dgbass]

Are you getting a digital? I have the cdp 100. A great digital piano for someone just starting out. It's cheap and has weighted keys. Just what I wanted. I have played bass for three years and then moved to piano to broadan my musical talents. Granted, it's definilty harder to "get on your feet" with piano (so much to learn), but if you can put and hour a day into it you will be suprised at what you accomplish.

Douglas.

 

[dalconthenovice]

i'll check out the cdp 100 then
i live in a group home for homeless youth and we have a piano that is horrendously out of tune in the lower frequencies *sigh* so it does nothing but piss people off that live here when i'm on it so a good keyboard that has a headphone jack is a must

 

[NineSpine]

wow, i thought i was being nice!

i think i know where we get off point from each other...you're looking at it from an ability/performance standpoint that you're better off learning how to play instruments that are (arguably) easier. it all greatly depends on the person, but i might be inclined to agree. guitar and drums were certainly easier for me, along with the 4 or 5 other instruments i can sort of play.

but for purposes of this discussion, i'm looking at it from a general all-around knowledge pov, and ability/performance is the least of my worries. and from that angle, it cannot be argued...piano is by far the best instrument to learn because of its visual aspect. not only can you hear the relationships between notes, but you can see them, and for that reason alone, it's got tremendous value. learn how to double on guitar, and you can hear the relationships, but every fret looks like every other so it's not intiutively visual. and piano is also a tremendous reference if you write music, even if you can't play it very well. you're only limited to the notes you can play at one time by the amount of fingers you have, so it's a lot easier to experiment with chords. guitar is great for chords as well, but it's got nothing on the keyboard because of its visual aspect. sorry, but that just plain can't be argued.

so if you want to learn instruments that you can perform on, learn whatever you want. but if you want to have a deeper understanding of chords and note relationships and an all around better understanding of how music works, piano > everything else.

I agree, the layout of the keyboard lends itself very well to classical western music theory. However, I think my argument hinges on the notion that learning from that perspective inevitably forces you to be derivative. If you want to break out of that shell later, you need unlearn, which is never a good thing to have to do. Learning from something that is completely chromatic in layout, like a guitar or bass, or totally off the wall like a sax, lets you learn from a much more "vanilla" perspective, where you aren't going to be as forced into specific musical patterns that align with one way of thinking.

Just an example is the number of people I've played with that get straight-up uncomfortable with dissonance. It throws them off. It makes them unable to play correctly. Even tastefully used dissonance can really cause them problems. This is because they have been trained on so much classical western theory, which has a consonance fetish.

At the end of the day, I think we agree more than we disagree though.

 

[Jim Campbell]

I agree, the layout of the keyboard lends itself very well to classical western music theory. However, I think my argument hinges on the notion that learning from that perspective inevitably forces you to be derivative. If you want to break out of that shell later, you need unlearn, which is never a good thing to have to do. Learning from something that is completely chromatic in layout, like a guitar or bass, or totally off the wall like a sax, lets you learn from a much more "vanilla" perspective, where you aren't going to be as forced into specific musical patterns that align with one way of thinking.

Just an example is the number of people I've played with that get straight-up uncomfortable with dissonance. It throws them off. It makes them unable to play correctly. Even tastefully used dissonance can really cause them problems. This is because they have been trained on so much classical western theory, which has a consonance fetish.

At the end of the day, I think we agree more than we disagree though.

whether or not one becomes "derivative" has little to do with the layout of the instrument imho,and more to do with the creativity of the player.....i'm sure paul bley started on a straight up piano,and learned to fill it with nuts and bolts later

 

[JimmyM]

everything i learned only expanded my creativity, imho, even when i was "following the rules." there is an argument to be made that some are creative because they don't know that they're "breaking" rules, but i would say that they're not really breaking rules, just proceeding straight away to the more outside rules.

 

[totallyfrozen]

Well, having learned and played the drums even before the piano, IMHO, it's not necessary for a bassist (or anyone who's not a dummer for that matter) to LEARN how to play the drums. Having a good sense of timing and rhythm is very necessary, but you don't need drums to learn that. Learning drums is much more about learning physical coordination than anything else. You can sit behind a drum set for 15 years and still suck at it if you don't have a sense of rhythm. I know this idea is not very popular with many people because it's not politically correct or "feel good" but--SOME level of natrual-born/"God-given" talent IS necessary to progress very far at all as a musician. I know people who wish with all their might that they could play something and have even spent money and time on instruments, lessons, and practice--and simply get nowhere. So, you'll either get rhythm or you won't. You don't need drums for that. Piano is a percussion instrument and I believe that a student can learn the rhythm and timing of music on the piano just as well as the drums.

As far as time cost/benefit is concerned, I think learning piano will give a student the training in rhythm and timing as well as teaching them about MUSIC (keys, chords, scales, intervals, etc.). Drums will really only teach a student some rhythm and timing and physical coordination. While you can progress faster on the drums than on the piano, IMO, that's not the same as getting "more bang for the buck". I think piano would be a better time investment than drums because piano will teach MORE than simply a sense of rhythm.

My 2 cents and it might be worth even less than that.

 

[totallyfrozen]

I agree, the layout of the keyboard lends itself very well to classical western music theory. However, I think my argument hinges on the notion that learning from that perspective inevitably forces you to be derivative. If you want to break out of that shell later, you need unlearn, which is never a good thing to have to do...

Well, I'm not going to get in a fight with you. However, it's starting to seem like you're arguing your viewpoint simply for the sake of agruing it. That probably sounds rude and I don't mean it to come across that way.

What I mean is, you are arguing the limitations of piano it seems from the viewpoint that it was designed around Western music and therefore it imposes limits on players looking to move beyond that. Well, even if that point is true, I think you're moving WAY outside the bounds of the OP question.

The OP was about a bass student asking whether or not learning the piano would make him a better bassist. He was not asking what instrument he should learn to play Eastern music in a temple full of Tibetan monks! If flexibility, intuitiveness, and speed of learning are the only selling points of an instrument, then we should argue that the thermin is the BEST choice for an instrument as it requires no strings, frets, keys, or breath control. Nothing more than a human hand. Can't get more intuitive than that; a baby could play one.

To keep it on topic with the OP, I don't think he should concern himself with how flexible his instrument will be for world music years from now. Considering he's in Seattle, he's LIKELY playing western music. In that light, piano might be the best choice for what he's trying to do. I admit in my earlier post; however, I recommended the guitar (as you did). I don't think guitar is a poor choice, but piano does combine the things that one could learn from both the guitar and the drums. IMO, of course.

 

[Stumbo]

4) Much easier to learn vocal parts on the piano.

And figure out and practice your harmonies.

Dont' forget, sight reading bass clef is also included. FTW.

Also, eventually get yourself a decent acoustic guitar and learn chords/songs that you can sing with. Your guitarist will love you and you'll have fun at the beach.

 

[timbledum]

I don't think ANY instrument is without design limitations that limit players into a specific way of thinking, and a lot of instruments that are better are still taught with a specific viewpoint in mind. I will uses keys as an example of a specific viewpoint as thats what ninespine used for the piano (bias towards C).

For example, I play the violin. At first looks it looks like it is a completely unbounded instruments, there's nothing but the open strings (and I guess the intervals) to influence what you play. Except for the open strings it appears like any key is equally playable. But as you're taught you are firmly biased towards between F and D. (ie F, C G and D) Those are the keys that violin players are most comfortable with, especially as they are learning. Why??? Because when you're learning you learn a specific position first and that position is easier to play with some fingers being in the same place over strings. It just makes it so much easier to learn with a key bias in place.

Another contrasting instrument, and one suggested as an alternative for keyboard is the guitar. Now this instrument I would suggest has a stronger bias than the keyboard (sanscapo). Think about all the songs that are in G/em or C or D or E. It's just easier to play open chords in those keys because of how the strings are tuned. I would argue that the guitar is more closed in viewpoint than the violin due to having an odd interval in the tunings. Why is there a different interval in the tunings? It makes open chords easier/possible to play.

Then again look at wind instruments. These instruments are tuned to specific key bases. The fingers are again all based around specific keys. It can be very difficult for a clarinet player to play a tune in a key they aren't familiar with, because it requires playing different key patterns they are not familiar with. Even drums has a set way of playing that most set-ups require.

So to say that keyboard/piano is seriously flawed because it "traps" you into certain keys is ludicrous. It is a "flaw" shared by pretty much any other instrument with the possible exception of the bass guitar (which can be argued has a bias due to the use of pedal note).

I would argue that the piano is more useful to a bassist than a guitar as it
a) is more different and requires more of a brainshift and therefore more learning,
b) it teaches notes and relationships between keys in a more meaningful manner (different notes as opposed to just moving up and down the neck),
c) learning it will improve reading ability (unless you're learning classical guitar)
d) it has a stronger relationship between the bass notes and the chords on top

However guitar over piano would
a) attract more girls
b) help you understand your bandmates a bit better
c) riffs/licks learnt on the guitar will directly transport to the bass.
d) still allow understanding of chords

My concern with guitar over piano is the learning of shapes rather than theory.

One argument is that learning within a specific framework requires unlearning down the track which is never good. I contend that and assert that learning in a specific framework is necessary for learning, and a step towards absolute flexibility and versatility on the instrument. Learning at a more limited, confined level builds up the skills that enable more dynamic ability. For example, the finger accuracy and bowing technique I acquired playing in first position on the violin was essential for when I began playing in other positions and more obscure keys. Another example is guitarists, who are often taught open chords and songs before they learn bar chords and licks in the guitar stratosphere. It is similar for piano. Proficient pianists find the keyboard system no hinderance to playing, but instead rely on it to find their position.

[/endrant]

 

[dalconthenovice]

my big thing? is i just like the idea of being a hired gun type of musician who can play multiple instruments with proficiency, so i like the idea of being proficient with three instruments that tend to get less attention (the other one being saxaphone)
i'd love to be ina band where i could incorporate all three into the act

 

[J-B'ass]

I'd agree with you on the Janko, Nine. But here's an interesting aside; does the C major bias of the piano make it easier for visualizing than the featureless plane of a chromatic instrument? It can be tricky holding a precise picture of a bass in your head when going over arpeggios etc, even with fret dots thrown in.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

No doubt, having the notes all in a straight line makes all the difference in the World. White and black make since, plus is it C# or Db can be grasped easily on the keyboard. The keyboard is a much better visual aid for theory. Of Course IMHO.

 

[RWRLV]

After being an electric bass player for a certain amount of time I found a few things very helpful in furthering my development as a bass player. After having a grasp on the modal concept (knowing & playing) I borrowed or bought lesson plans for instruments other than mine than adapted those concepts to my bass playing note choice or form so to speak, technique development & interpretation. It also gave me a better understanding of what the other musicians were doing around me or should be doing. I was also lucky to have had a great high school music education & played in jazz band.

Example with Drums- 40 ESSENTIAL SNARE DRUM RUDIMENTS, Ted Reeds book Syncopation & or concepts like Linear Drumming. This helped tremendously with understanding rhythms & feels. Then in my younger days I was once again lucky to work with schooled drummers who loved to have me bounce this stuff off of them & or apply it while jamming.

Piano- Piano books since they don't have tab are a big help. You must read both clefs & YOU must figure out the best fingerings yourself to arrive at the required notes. Chord forms, arpeggios, inversions, harmony & melody galore. You will find your understanding of how music works & your technique will jump leaps & bounds trying to make something that was not meant to be played on electric bass be done.

Guitar- Avoid how to guitar books & things with TAB but books like The Complete Guitarist, Mel Bays Rhythm guitar Chord system & a Guitar Chord hand book will help with relating to it's stringed counterpart. I also found finger style Jazz guitar to be a big help. So I agree with having an acoustic guitar around to noodle on but not get hung up on.

After this the transposition of anything should be very easy & natural rather than going to the net & finding TAB some knuckle head put up. You learn where to put your fingers & know nothing else.

So in short to the OP if you are going to play bass focus on bass but knowing the language & methods of the others will help you in the long run.

 

[Crazyeelboy]

I started working with keyboards as a tool to help my theory studies and it has been extraordinarily useful to me. I don't really have a drive to become a piano player, but instead to use the instrument to help me learn more about theory, composition, arranging, etc.

I guess that a bassist's decision to choose between drums or piano would turn on whether the focus is on rythm or melody/harmony aspects of playing bass. I personally spent the past few years working on the rythm side and am now more interested in the melody/harmony side.

Ninespine raises an interesting issue (although it does not seem to be the main point) in how physical playing of instruments affects the music played or written on those instruments. The more interesting issue to me is that with digital technology and sampling, one really can learn to write and "play" music without actually playing any traditional musical instrument. I wonder how this is going to influence musical composition.

 

[Felipe Gianei]

I want to be good at piano, how can I start? Would I take lessons?

 

[Old P Bass Guy]

Too much thinking getting in the way of doing, if you ask me.

Their all gettin tangled up in their underware. All these contributers are probably very intelligent people. They shouldn't be surprised or offended when someone disagrees with a diffrent point of view.