gotta learn the rules before you can break the rules
Enjoy the benefits of a premium membership!
Upgrade Account
-
TalkBass has been independent since 1998. Add your voice.
Create a free account to reply to discussions, view embedded media, and browse with fewer display ads.
Join free Log in
Want zero display ads or expanded classifieds tools? Compare plans.
Left hand technique
- Thread starter Geepers
- Start date
The point was I don’t find ANY of the positions you listed earlier as comfortable or natural. Quite the opposite.
I need very specific necks to feel comfortable even doing it for limited periods of time.
I’ll pull out advanced technique when needed, but not necessary for 80% of bass lines at gigs.
Agreed. As a jazz/big band player I would never be able to play thumb over neck. The fingers need to be spread out over 4 frets to read and not look.
The best teachers instill good habits.
I wholeheartedly disagree that there is only 1 correct way. Everyone has different shaped hands and arms. Plus it’s scientifically known that playing your bass too high on your body is dorky. So sometimes it’s necessary to make accommodations.
But perpendicular is how I learned violin and bass and guitar. And no death grip.
I wholeheartedly disagree that there is only 1 correct way. Everyone has different shaped hands and arms. Plus it’s scientifically known that playing your bass too high on your body is dorky. So sometimes it’s necessary to make accommodations.
But perpendicular is how I learned violin and bass and guitar. And no death grip.
I’ve been playing with my thumb behind the neck over 50 years-no injuries.
I took BG lessons in the early 70’s from a great DB player that insisted on it.
Though there are exceptions, most of the players that wrap their thumb around the neck would have a difficult time sight reading difficult passages. I know there are exceptions. Louis Johnson’s left hand thumb was an integral part of HIS technique.
Trumpet teachers stress to new students to not puff their cheeks full of air— enter Dizzy Gillespie.
I took BG lessons in the early 70’s from a great DB player that insisted on it.
Though there are exceptions, most of the players that wrap their thumb around the neck would have a difficult time sight reading difficult passages. I know there are exceptions. Louis Johnson’s left hand thumb was an integral part of HIS technique.
Trumpet teachers stress to new students to not puff their cheeks full of air— enter Dizzy Gillespie.
I was just about to post the same thing. Learn to do it correctly, then adjust for what works best for you.
Well, I am completely illiterate and only play by ear and with my "technique", whatever it is. I was always told that my fingering was unortodox, that the wrist... the fingers... the thumb... the plucking hand... but I just learned to play along the records: both guitar and bass. The only thing I knew, doing that, was that if I heard something wrong, it surely was me!
So, I am the worst one to possibly say: "this is ok - this is not ok". But about teachers I can tell you this: several years ago, on my saturdays or free time, I was used to spend time in a music school run by a friend of mine. I helped anything necessary. Over there, the bass teacher was a well respect bassplayer, one with lots of studio sessions, tours etc. A real pro, ok?
So, the first thing he was used to teach to the young starting guys, or even to the older already playing ones, was "how to wear the bass" and it was like this: bass body on the chest, the left arm/hand well high (over the head). Now, this guy was 190 cm - 6,2 feet and he obviously had no problems playing like that. I could also understand why: he had a degree from the conservatory, so he sort of treated the bass almost like an upright.
But the other standard students (not tall like him) EVIDENTLY had troubles and were sort of embarassed with the bass placed like that. I just shook my head every lesson I observed and separately told to the guys to lower the bass. From that time I understood even more clearly that maybe there are as much "ways" to play as many bassplayers there are on the planet. I don't think anybody can actually say that there is "the" way to play. Sure, there could be some more CTS risks fingering or plucking in certain ways, with some weird wrist position, but I don't think there is a totally pain free way... my modest 2c.
So, I am the worst one to possibly say: "this is ok - this is not ok". But about teachers I can tell you this: several years ago, on my saturdays or free time, I was used to spend time in a music school run by a friend of mine. I helped anything necessary. Over there, the bass teacher was a well respect bassplayer, one with lots of studio sessions, tours etc. A real pro, ok?
So, the first thing he was used to teach to the young starting guys, or even to the older already playing ones, was "how to wear the bass" and it was like this: bass body on the chest, the left arm/hand well high (over the head). Now, this guy was 190 cm - 6,2 feet and he obviously had no problems playing like that. I could also understand why: he had a degree from the conservatory, so he sort of treated the bass almost like an upright.
But the other standard students (not tall like him) EVIDENTLY had troubles and were sort of embarassed with the bass placed like that. I just shook my head every lesson I observed and separately told to the guys to lower the bass. From that time I understood even more clearly that maybe there are as much "ways" to play as many bassplayers there are on the planet. I don't think anybody can actually say that there is "the" way to play. Sure, there could be some more CTS risks fingering or plucking in certain ways, with some weird wrist position, but I don't think there is a totally pain free way... my modest 2c.
Smooth_bass88
vaxx!
- Oct 31, 2006
- 12,122
- 16,794
- Disclosures
- have been on nationally released albums, charting on the Billboard 200
First and foremost, do whatever works for you. I personally believe that a wrapped thumb inhibits movement and inhibits your ability to spread the other four fingers outward so that you can also use the "one finger per fret" technique.
And... it is harder to reach the lower strings with your thumb wrapped over the top.
It is important to moisten the finger before using it in some particular positions.
I think you're conflating two very different issues here: How you position your thumb and fingers normally, versus whether it's "okay" to occasionally sneak your thumb over top of the neck.
On the former, I think the commonly taught method of keeping the thumb and fingers perpendicular to the neck, with thumb behind the 2nd finger, is bad advice. It's fine if you're playing high on the neck, where it feels natural, but unless you have a 20-foot wingspan you can't physically maintain this position down near the nut without severely bending/twisting your wrist. That bent/twisted wrist is a recipe for repetitive-motion injuries such as CTS and should be avoided. This oft-posted video explains:
As for sneaking the thumb over the neck from time-to-time, I personally don't understand why anyone does that -- I can't even do it on purpose -- but I'm inclined to believe that anything is okay if it's only occasional. It's what you do most of the time that potentially increases your risk of injury.
Jazzdogg
Less barking, more wagging!
This is another clear-cut case of, "You should know and understand the rules before you start breaking them."
@Geepers - please tell us more about your bass technique & habits.
Did you have a straight fretting wrist?
A slightly bent wrist? or
a full bent/ flexed wrist when you played?
How many hours per week would you play bass (on average)?
How flexible are you normally?
Did you do regular stretches and warm ups when playing bass?
Also, please tell us what work & other hobbies you do.
I’ll almost guarantee these other factors had a much bigger influence on you developing CTS than playing bass.
Did you have a straight fretting wrist?
A slightly bent wrist? or
a full bent/ flexed wrist when you played?
How many hours per week would you play bass (on average)?
How flexible are you normally?
Did you do regular stretches and warm ups when playing bass?
Also, please tell us what work & other hobbies you do.
I’ll almost guarantee these other factors had a much bigger influence on you developing CTS than playing bass.
I was heavily into motorcycle riding at the time and that definitely was a factor in developing the CTS. But bass playing using “standard” technique really aggravated it. I actually had to quit playing for a few years. It was during that period that I realised I HAD to figure out a way to play without triggering CTS (it’s VERY easily triggered …. I’m borderline needing surgery) but I’ve managed to do that and can now play for hours a day (to a good standard) with no CTS whatsoever. It’s been a long haul and there were times when the effort to completely relearn how to play seemed a mountain too high but I’m so pleased I persevered as I’m having a blast now. Even went out and bought a whole new rig last week to celebrate
A few people have asked what I actually do technique-wise now to avoid Carpal Tunnel problems so rather than answer individually I thought I’d post a bit of a summary here.
1. I switched to a custom, short scale (31”) fretless bass with very low action (it’s unlined and no side dots so that I HAVE to play by ears, not eyes)
2. I now play with an ultra light touch (800w amp turned up high to compensate); bonus here is that I love the tone this produces
3. I switched to a “floating thumb” technique on my right hand (Gary Willis)
4. I now occasionally use three finger plucking (Willis) instead of exclusively two (reduces stretching/strain at times)
5. I switched to the Carol Kaye left hand technique (thumb always points towards the nut, not the ceiling; fingers move as a unit, pivoting off the thumb)
6. I now play with super flat wrists 90% of the time; this (often) means playing with the very tips of curled left hand fingers and it means extending my right elbow away from my body (it also meant I had to do a LOT of experimentation with bass height/position/angles … I’ve got it bang on now)
7. I had to solve neck dive. My custom bass is pretty good in this respect but still had a tiny amount of dive. I wanted zero so that my hands could barely touch the instrument. I’ve come up with a simple restraining system that holds the bass in the perfect position even if I let it go and walk around.
I barely touch the strings with both left and right hands now and let the amp do all the work. It lets me play completely stress-free and I can now go for hours a day, every day without a problem. I know some of you can already do this with more conventional techniques but for me this is amazing as I wondered if I’d ever be able to play again at all, let alone play this much.
The final piece of the technique has nothing to do with hands or bass: it’s breath. I have learned to focus on breath only while I play - ie play on auto pilot, no thought about what I’m actually doing (the big learning here came from Kenny Werner’s “Effortless Mastery” and the follow up “Becoming The Instrument”). This has been huge. It prevents tension creeping in and allows me to execute fast/tricky passages way more easily. You can get to the point of simply observing your hands playing with no conscious control over them at all.
There’s quite a bit more I could talk about (eg left hand damping technique, why the unlined fretless is such an important part of this, how I now go about practice …and lots of other things) but this gives you the gist. I hope it helps someone. This has not been an easy transition but I love playing bass so much I pushed through and have overcome. So will you if you want it as much as I do. Good luck!
1. I switched to a custom, short scale (31”) fretless bass with very low action (it’s unlined and no side dots so that I HAVE to play by ears, not eyes)
2. I now play with an ultra light touch (800w amp turned up high to compensate); bonus here is that I love the tone this produces
3. I switched to a “floating thumb” technique on my right hand (Gary Willis)
4. I now occasionally use three finger plucking (Willis) instead of exclusively two (reduces stretching/strain at times)
5. I switched to the Carol Kaye left hand technique (thumb always points towards the nut, not the ceiling; fingers move as a unit, pivoting off the thumb)
6. I now play with super flat wrists 90% of the time; this (often) means playing with the very tips of curled left hand fingers and it means extending my right elbow away from my body (it also meant I had to do a LOT of experimentation with bass height/position/angles … I’ve got it bang on now)
7. I had to solve neck dive. My custom bass is pretty good in this respect but still had a tiny amount of dive. I wanted zero so that my hands could barely touch the instrument. I’ve come up with a simple restraining system that holds the bass in the perfect position even if I let it go and walk around.
I barely touch the strings with both left and right hands now and let the amp do all the work. It lets me play completely stress-free and I can now go for hours a day, every day without a problem. I know some of you can already do this with more conventional techniques but for me this is amazing as I wondered if I’d ever be able to play again at all, let alone play this much.
The final piece of the technique has nothing to do with hands or bass: it’s breath. I have learned to focus on breath only while I play - ie play on auto pilot, no thought about what I’m actually doing (the big learning here came from Kenny Werner’s “Effortless Mastery” and the follow up “Becoming The Instrument”). This has been huge. It prevents tension creeping in and allows me to execute fast/tricky passages way more easily. You can get to the point of simply observing your hands playing with no conscious control over them at all.
There’s quite a bit more I could talk about (eg left hand damping technique, why the unlined fretless is such an important part of this, how I now go about practice …and lots of other things) but this gives you the gist. I hope it helps someone. This has not been an easy transition but I love playing bass so much I pushed through and have overcome. So will you if you want it as much as I do. Good luck!
Last edited:
A few people have asked what I actually do technique-wise now to avoid Carpal Tunnel problems so rather than answer individually I thought I’d post a bit of a summary here.
1. I switched to a custom, short scale (31”) fretless bass with very low action (it’s unlined and no side dots so that I HAVE to play by ears, not eyes)
2. I now play with an ultra light touch (800w amp turned up high to compensate); bonus here is that I love the tone this produces
3. I switched to a “floating thumb” technique on my right hand (Gary Willis)
4. I now occasionally use three finger plucking (Willis) instead of exclusively two (reduces stretching/strain at times)
5. I switched to the Carol Kaye left hand technique (thumb always points towards the nut, not the ceiling; fingers move as a unit, pivoting off the thumb)
6. I now play with super flat wrists 90% of the time; this means playing with the very tips of curled left hand fingers and it means extending my right elbow away from my body (it also meant I had to do a LOT of experimentation with bass height/position/angles … I’ve got it bang on now)
7. I had to solve neck dive. My custom bass is pretty good in this respect but still had a tiny amount of dive. I wanted zero so that my hands could barely touch the instrument. I’ve come up with a simple restraining system that holds the bass in the perfect position even if I let it go and walk around.
I barely touch the strings with both left and right fingers now and let the amp do all the work. It lets me play completely stress-free and I can now go for hours a day, every day without a problem. I know some of you can already do this with more conventional techniques but for me this is amazing as I wondered if I’d ever be able to play again at all, let alone play this much.
The final piece of the technique has nothing to do with hands or bass: it’s breath. I have learned to focus on breath only while I play - ie play on auto pilot, no thought about what I’m actually doing (the big learning here came from Kenny Werner’s “Effortless Mastery” and the follow up “Becoming The Instrument”). This has been huge. It prevents tension creeping in and allows me to execute fast/tricky passages way more easily. You can get to the point of simply observing your hands playing with no conscious control over them at all.
There’s quite a bit more I could talk about (eg left hand damping technique, why the unlined fretless is such an important part of this …and lots of other things) but this gives you the gist. I hope it helps someone. This has not been an easy transition but I love playing bass so much I pushed through and have overcome. So will you if you want it as much as I do. Good luck!
All (mostly) good stuff - I don't understand the diversion in your first post about hooking thumbs over the top and posting McCartney videos etc. as examples of good technique. What was that all about?
Also interested in how the unlined fingerboard helps? I play unlined all the time but probably for different reasons, so genuinely interested in taking that conversation further on how it might contribute to an ergonomic method. Right now I see no direct correlation other than having to develop good handshape and posture, but that is also true for lined 'boards, IMHO.
The over the top thumb/Macartney thing: that all got away from my original intent which was simply to show that current teaching about left hand position is too dogmatic … occasional “thumb over” great players show that this rigidity of approach is unnecessary and, I believe, contributing to injury for many.
The importance of unlined fretless: if it’s lined, I will look at my hands* no matter how self disciplined I think I am; when I look at my hands my mind is now on what my hands are doing rather than my breath; when that happens I don’t flow; when I don’t flow I get tension (even subtle); where there’s tension, injury is sure to (eventually) follow. So it’s all a big inter-connected system, every part affects every other part. You said my system was “mostly” good. No, for me it’s ALL good …essential in fact. People can/will ignore/disagree with all/some of it … fine. The proof of it for me is that I can now play discomfort-free to a high standard for as long as I want. Others may benefit similarly if they take the same route. Each of us has to work out what is optimum for us.
* I never look at my hands now - there’s no point as there’s nothing to see! Think violinist… same deal.
Last edited:
