Sorry Pac, if I remember correctly that's got a few whole notesOriginally posted by Pacman
oooh! and Chromatic Fantasy
in it.
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Less is More
- Thread starter nanook
- Start date
in it.
Well I think that points numbered 1 and 3 are pretty much non-controversial, but I had difficulty understanding what no. 2 is about :
"
2. I will try to explain this in the simplest terms. Two 1/2 notes do not add up to a whole note. Two 1/8 notes do not add up to a 1/4 note. When you add in unneeded notes you are reducing the actual amount of bass in the song.
Lets say the line calls for a whole note and you spice it up with two half notes instead. For the amount of time you take to put your finger (or thumb for thumbers) on the string and stretch or strike it and release it so the next note can be heard, no sound is coming from your bass. If you had played the whole note, the entire bar would have been full of bass sound."
This seems to be saying that there is somehow "less bass" in a song that has shorter notes and and seems to be trying to say that more long notes = more bass an this is by definition a good thing.
If this is what it is trying to say, then I would take issue with this. But as I said I'm not sure really what point is being made in this para, so I just said that I agreed with OM that you can't generalise in the way that point 2 seems to be trying to.
By the way - this point isn't qualified by anything like "if that's what the music needs", as far as I can see?
This is basically what I was saying about "generalising" - to me all musical situations are different.
But I am interested in this "conversation" idea as I know it has come up a few times and is something that my Jazz tutor talks about a lot - we just started the winter term!
So, if everybody is equal and all respect each other equally, then fine - you have a great Jazz group!
But in most situations, things aren't like that - you have leaders and followers, you have introverts and extroverts. You have people in the band who know they are better than everybody else!
To me this is what life is like - there's always somebody trying to "railroad" the conversation where they want it to go, for their own purposes. There are always people who are not prepared to argue and will do anything to avoid confrontation, so will go along with the more "assertive" person .
Is this what others experience? I mean I 'd like to say that all "conversations" are equal exchanges of ideas but they aren't! As social animals we have learnt to use communication for our onw advantage and if you don't "hold your own corner" you know you're gonna get screwed!
Similarly in bands - there is always a leader who makes most of the decisions and the others argue, struggle to get their stuff (ideas)in or just lie back and take it!
It would be nice if everybody was totally focused on just making nice music - but I find that there are always "agendas" - in life and music?
But I am interested in this "conversation" idea as I know it has come up a few times and is something that my Jazz tutor talks about a lot - we just started the winter term!
So, if everybody is equal and all respect each other equally, then fine - you have a great Jazz group!
But in most situations, things aren't like that - you have leaders and followers, you have introverts and extroverts. You have people in the band who know they are better than everybody else!
To me this is what life is like - there's always somebody trying to "railroad" the conversation where they want it to go, for their own purposes. There are always people who are not prepared to argue and will do anything to avoid confrontation, so will go along with the more "assertive" person .
Is this what others experience? I mean I 'd like to say that all "conversations" are equal exchanges of ideas but they aren't! As social animals we have learnt to use communication for our onw advantage and if you don't "hold your own corner" you know you're gonna get screwed!
Similarly in bands - there is always a leader who makes most of the decisions and the others argue, struggle to get their stuff (ideas)in or just lie back and take it!
It would be nice if everybody was totally focused on just making nice music - but I find that there are always "agendas" - in life and music?
Great story - I've heard similar things from Jazz pros over here - some bands , everybody really likes each other and others you can just see they all hate the Sax player or whoever!
I have heard that some women in Jazz prefer to play with other women so they dont have to deal with so many egos (!) but usually I suppose it's a case of you are stuck and might as well try to make music.
I have seen some groups where it is like a collective and drums and bass are contributing just as much as the sax and piano player - in terms of the direction and compositions.
More often though in your typical small Jazz group, there is a leader who is usually a sax player who chooses all the tunes and arranges them , with a rhythm section which might include some "star" players, but who are clearly there to support the leader.
So if you were asked by a "big name" Sax player to play, who made it clear that you were "just part of the rhythm section" - would you turn down the gig, argue the case about how much input you have or just take the money, keep quiet and play professionally but with a "resigned air" ?
Bruce - I interpreted nanook's phrase "what the line calls for" as meaning "what the music needs".
EDIE FUKU - Judging from your second post, I don't think we really disagree about this. You recognise that different genres and styles require different decisions and approaches than the one you take with the guys you play with. And that those choices are legitimate.
What I was speaking to was this statement:
songwriter/defacto leader for this tune: 'Let's quieten it down, be a bit less busy on the bridge"
band - "cool"
me (to myself) -"maybe pedal through the bridge".
So, I'm not playing the music?
But I'm really talking about more general decisions. Who you choose to play with, what that group wants to do. The style and genre of music. Even what you listen to and practice.
Using your example (Prince, 7/8, second line), a lot of decisions have already been made about what you are gonna play. As far as how what you listen to and practice affects it, well, I can use extreme examples too.
Suppose you are intimately familiar with both the changes of Prince, but also with running changes in 7/8. The problem is that you've always written off New Orlean's music as "old timey" and the only second line stuff you know is a two handed tapping version of Fess' piano on Big Chief you copped from your buddy, without hearing the original.
Sure, I'm exagerating to make a point. The point remains, even in the freest forms, we make decisions that affect how we hear what the music needs. Affects how we hear what the others are saying. Affects whether or not we are loquacious orators, or a men of few words in the musical conversation.
BTW, I can't get the idea of a 7/8 second line out of my head, you b******.
EDIE FUKU - Judging from your second post, I don't think we really disagree about this. You recognise that different genres and styles require different decisions and approaches than the one you take with the guys you play with. And that those choices are legitimate.
What I was speaking to was this statement:
Those are some pretty specific ideas. Let's take one of them.
songwriter/defacto leader for this tune: 'Let's quieten it down, be a bit less busy on the bridge"
band - "cool"
me (to myself) -"maybe pedal through the bridge".
So, I'm not playing the music?
But I'm really talking about more general decisions. Who you choose to play with, what that group wants to do. The style and genre of music. Even what you listen to and practice.
Using your example (Prince, 7/8, second line), a lot of decisions have already been made about what you are gonna play. As far as how what you listen to and practice affects it, well, I can use extreme examples too.
Suppose you are intimately familiar with both the changes of Prince, but also with running changes in 7/8. The problem is that you've always written off New Orlean's music as "old timey" and the only second line stuff you know is a two handed tapping version of Fess' piano on Big Chief you copped from your buddy, without hearing the original.
Sure, I'm exagerating to make a point. The point remains, even in the freest forms, we make decisions that affect how we hear what the music needs. Affects how we hear what the others are saying. Affects whether or not we are loquacious orators, or a men of few words in the musical conversation.
BTW, I can't get the idea of a 7/8 second line out of my head, you b******.
EDIE GOURMET - I did the search, you've certainly got great taste in drummers.
And yeah, I'd love to hear AB as a 7/8 second line thing. Sh*t, I think the world would love to hear that!
About the discussion. Nah, it's not about genre. I've played all kinds of jazz (really all I played from '82 'till about '93), some with players who love the interplay and drummers who can turn on a dime, some with folks who all they want to hear from the rhythm section is: "here's the changes".
I'm very fortunate to playing with some cats now that are so good it kicks my butt and lifts my playing. I sometimes wonder what they are doing with my lame *ss, but I ain't complaining.
As I said before, I think we are mostly in agreement. Any disagreement we have quickly devolves to a kind of "free will" vs "you are what you eat" discussion that is best left for road trips (after answering the pressing questions of "if you were a dog, what kind of dog would you be? and "what's your favorite kind of Waffle House hash browns?").
And yeah, I'd love to hear AB as a 7/8 second line thing. Sh*t, I think the world would love to hear that!
About the discussion. Nah, it's not about genre. I've played all kinds of jazz (really all I played from '82 'till about '93), some with players who love the interplay and drummers who can turn on a dime, some with folks who all they want to hear from the rhythm section is: "here's the changes".
I'm very fortunate to playing with some cats now that are so good it kicks my butt and lifts my playing. I sometimes wonder what they are doing with my lame *ss, but I ain't complaining.
As I said before, I think we are mostly in agreement. Any disagreement we have quickly devolves to a kind of "free will" vs "you are what you eat" discussion that is best left for road trips (after answering the pressing questions of "if you were a dog, what kind of dog would you be? and "what's your favorite kind of Waffle House hash browns?").
I guess I should have specified existing music as opposed to origional works. Wouldn't want to step on anyones creativity.
Bass players that constantly overplay existing music are what I hate to hear. It's just plain tacky.
Again, I'm talking about players that hammer on a piece of music, not tasteful alterations that improve the music.
Bass players that constantly overplay existing music are what I hate to hear. It's just plain tacky.
Again, I'm talking about players that hammer on a piece of music, not tasteful alterations that improve the music.
Well, you may have qualified your original statement enough so that I can't agree with it. I guess my interpretation of your first post was not as on the mark as I had hoped. So bassists who cover tunes should limit their improv unless it's tasteful? What's tasteful? What's hammering? It may get back to what Ed was saying about genres.
It's a given that folks who overplay, suck. What's overplaying comes down to personal taste and the context of the music as it is being played at that moment. In that context a bassist maybe be moved to play 16ths in a section that originally had whole notes and still be giving the music what it needs.
One of the pianists I play with likes to take Funny Valentine up to around 180 bpm. We hammer the the hell of that tune, we're talking tough love.
If you only accept that it sounds good and tasteful as a ballad, then you would hate this. Most folks dig it though and we have great fun.
I agree that this is a purely subjective thing and is why I originally cited Jaco. So - Jaco plays a lot of notes in some tunes - but IMO he never "overplays", because he knows what he's doing and has a musical sensibility which informs his playing. People wanted to hear that sensibility - which to me creates excitment and interest in the music.
People like virtuosity in music for these reasons and they don't always want to hear simple basic lines - it's like saying - you always have simple meat and potatos becuase it does the job! Well yes, but it's nice to have some Cordon Bleu occasionally!
I only added the tasteful part because there are some real simpletons out there recording music and I don't think it is a desecration to improve on that sound. Even then, if you venture far from the original bass line someone will notice. Even if it's better, it isn't the song they loved when they heard it on the radio. Busted
Are you onboard with me again now Joe?
Are you onboard with me again now Joe?
Just jumping in here and didn't read the whole thread so if I am overly redundent, excuse me
The right bass notes at the right time can support and enhance any solo that is happening by any band member be it busy or sparse. It certainly isn't nessessarily a single whole note. Come on!!! And the inverse is also true, sometimes (often), it is the space between the notes (silence), that makes the the music work in the moment.
In laymens terms of course
Personally I love the way bass has evolved over the years and now has it's rightful place in the band;...harmonize, funkisize, soloize, or bastardize
The right bass notes at the right time can support and enhance any solo that is happening by any band member be it busy or sparse. It certainly isn't nessessarily a single whole note. Come on!!! And the inverse is also true, sometimes (often), it is the space between the notes (silence), that makes the the music work in the moment.
In laymens terms of course
Personally I love the way bass has evolved over the years and now has it's rightful place in the band;...harmonize, funkisize, soloize, or bastardize
Interesting conversation. Maybe I'm also not reading the original post right but here's some of my .02 cents based on my experiences.
I'd definately say, it's what the music calls for. It's what the band is doing. If you've got counterpoint going on between a couple of horns, and the guitar player is doing a single note line with them...its probably best if you hold it back and let them do their jive. On the other hand if a tune has leveled out and there's some space..sure, go ahead and throw in you 512th note 2 bar fill. I personally have found myself comforatable in the note heavy styles of funk..not slapping but finger-style..kinda Rocco Prestia-ish(only not as good). This is great but I became too comforatable with it. I started playing in a latin/afro-cuban group recently and I'm really conciously having to lay back. With all the percussion elements going on I need to mesh my bass in there and it usually isnt by being busy at all. Quite the opposite. The bass in this music I've found to be really laid back into the groove with a generous amount of space. It's something I'm working on..but I can tell you, when I try to shoot off some rapid fire stuff it just doesn't fit. Thats not to say some bad-ass latin player whose been doing that music all his life couldnt do it and make it work..but for me, with little experience in this style, I'm just trying to fit.
To that end, I've been finding the great grooves you can create with space and with the whole less is more approach. Again, its been a tough adjustment for me but it's something I'm enjoying and becoming more comforatable with.
You also gotta watch out if you're a fast/busy player. I once read an interview with Mike Gordon, the bass player for Phish...and like him or not he said something about his bass playing that struck me. What he said is something to the effect that when he started consciously removing what he called "ego notes" from his lines, they became more solid and more groovy than ever before. That hit home for me...and I'm trying to take the same approach.
Bottom line is there is no right way..thats why this is music and not college algebra. Play what sounds good to you, and I'll do the same thank you very much.
Best,
Rob
I'd definately say, it's what the music calls for. It's what the band is doing. If you've got counterpoint going on between a couple of horns, and the guitar player is doing a single note line with them...its probably best if you hold it back and let them do their jive. On the other hand if a tune has leveled out and there's some space..sure, go ahead and throw in you 512th note 2 bar fill. I personally have found myself comforatable in the note heavy styles of funk..not slapping but finger-style..kinda Rocco Prestia-ish(only not as good). This is great but I became too comforatable with it. I started playing in a latin/afro-cuban group recently and I'm really conciously having to lay back. With all the percussion elements going on I need to mesh my bass in there and it usually isnt by being busy at all. Quite the opposite. The bass in this music I've found to be really laid back into the groove with a generous amount of space. It's something I'm working on..but I can tell you, when I try to shoot off some rapid fire stuff it just doesn't fit. Thats not to say some bad-ass latin player whose been doing that music all his life couldnt do it and make it work..but for me, with little experience in this style, I'm just trying to fit.
To that end, I've been finding the great grooves you can create with space and with the whole less is more approach. Again, its been a tough adjustment for me but it's something I'm enjoying and becoming more comforatable with.
You also gotta watch out if you're a fast/busy player. I once read an interview with Mike Gordon, the bass player for Phish...and like him or not he said something about his bass playing that struck me. What he said is something to the effect that when he started consciously removing what he called "ego notes" from his lines, they became more solid and more groovy than ever before. That hit home for me...and I'm trying to take the same approach.
Bottom line is there is no right way..thats why this is music and not college algebra. Play what sounds good to you, and I'll do the same thank you very much.
Best,
Rob
Our guitarist writes mostly all of the songs.
He is forever bugging me to "put a solo in here" "give it a cool intro". To me, most of the time his ideas don't fit in the song (even though it is "his" song).
I don't mind showing off, I love to make use of techniques I've practiced. But only where suitable. I usually play very vanilla. As I get intimate with the song, I'll add things in.
He is forever bugging me to "put a solo in here" "give it a cool intro". To me, most of the time his ideas don't fit in the song (even though it is "his" song).
I don't mind showing off, I love to make use of techniques I've practiced. But only where suitable. I usually play very vanilla. As I get intimate with the song, I'll add things in.
If you're a 'busy bee', another way to lay back(besides the Afro-Cuban/Latin thing)-
Play a figure in 1/2 time vs. what's goin' around you.
If you have a particular 'busy' 1/16th note groove/vamp you like, try playin' it in an 1/8th note feel(while keeping everything else the same...if possible; hopefully, your original tunes/grooves are like mine-they're only ONE chord!).
Example over a 'Funky" drum beat-
/1e_a_e&_3_&_4e&_/ = 1 bar
Becomes-
/1&_&_&4_/1_2_3&4_/ = 2 bars
...also, playin' in 1/2 time over ODD times presents more options(say, counting to 3 1/2 while in 7).
Blah...
Play a figure in 1/2 time vs. what's goin' around you.
If you have a particular 'busy' 1/16th note groove/vamp you like, try playin' it in an 1/8th note feel(while keeping everything else the same...if possible; hopefully, your original tunes/grooves are like mine-they're only ONE chord!).
Example over a 'Funky" drum beat-
/1e_a_e&_3_&_4e&_/ = 1 bar
Becomes-
/1&_&_&4_/1_2_3&4_/ = 2 bars
...also, playin' in 1/2 time over ODD times presents more options(say, counting to 3 1/2 while in 7).
Blah...
More musical content means more musical content. Numbers of notes isn't a very useful way to judge the situation, that's true.
Bach has a steady stream of sixteenth notes in many of his pieces. I wouldn't dare say that anything he did was 'less' than playing whole notes just because it has 'more' notes.
Bach has a steady stream of sixteenth notes in many of his pieces. I wouldn't dare say that anything he did was 'less' than playing whole notes just because it has 'more' notes.
Hmm, I'm coming into this conversation a little bit late, so I hope that my comments are still valid.
I think what Nanook and Chris are getting at, is there is a such thing, I believe, as "Playing to much in a song". Don't get me wrong, there are times to play 10 million notes. But a good example, would be "Fortunate Son" by CCR. Say your playing that song. The basis of that song is root notes. You can play some lead in tones to the chords, and maybe a riff in between lines, but if you sway from those roots as the main theme, and start playing runs all over the place, the song is just going to bottom out and sound terrible. Don't get me wrong, I love to go all over the neck, but I've learned, there are times where I have to simplify things for the better of the song. It's very easy to step on your other band members toes during a song by playing to much. Then again, there are times, where 10 bazillion notes sound alright.
I think what Nanook and Chris are getting at, is there is a such thing, I believe, as "Playing to much in a song". Don't get me wrong, there are times to play 10 million notes. But a good example, would be "Fortunate Son" by CCR. Say your playing that song. The basis of that song is root notes. You can play some lead in tones to the chords, and maybe a riff in between lines, but if you sway from those roots as the main theme, and start playing runs all over the place, the song is just going to bottom out and sound terrible. Don't get me wrong, I love to go all over the neck, but I've learned, there are times where I have to simplify things for the better of the song. It's very easy to step on your other band members toes during a song by playing to much. Then again, there are times, where 10 bazillion notes sound alright.
If you're saying don't approach a song thinking "I'm going to play as many note as I possibly can in the time alotted." I'll agree.
After all, too many dots will become a straight line.
After all, too many dots will become a straight line.
hard to convey some of this in words, but i have a few learning experiences from playing bass parts in large, and very loud horn ensembles that relate here:
one instructor relayed a point to us that i believe bethoven is credited with...
he stood in front of us with his hand clenched in front of him, as if playing a single piano key. He depresses the imaginary key and says, "Any fool can do this...", pausing to stare us all in the eye.
"But not every fool can do this...", and he lifts his finger off of the imaginary key.
on another occasion we had 100+ musicians in an outdoor setting who wanted to pause for a moment in a performance, and use a vocal.
the vocal was supposed to be, "Thanks! I needed that!". but we found out after several weeks of rehearsal that it was too difficult to hear clearly outside. The volume, environment and ensemble issues made the statement itself impossible to understand clearly, so it sounded like 100+ people stopping what they were doing and shouting random crap at the audience.
one instructor finally figured out if we all said instead, "Thank! I needed that!", the vocal was suddenly very clear and understandble. Not only that but the words actually sounded properly articulated, meaning that the audience really heard the vocal as if we had all pronounced the missing 'S'.
but, as jimi hendrix, among so many others, so artfully proved, that ghosting thing works both ways, as much as the ear fills in the gaps, it also follows the suggestions, and often the busy stuff is what creates the music in the first place.
i think weather report is a perfect example of taste kept well within the realms of taste, not the extreme, but i also know a song on "this is this" (i'll never forget you) where the bass plays some whole notes (or damned near enough).
in fact, three in a row. very skillfully making sure he stops the notes as carefuly as he starts them, and myriad other nuiasciances that match the ensemble perfectly, and fill out the phrases with bass.
=P
one instructor relayed a point to us that i believe bethoven is credited with...
he stood in front of us with his hand clenched in front of him, as if playing a single piano key. He depresses the imaginary key and says, "Any fool can do this...", pausing to stare us all in the eye.
"But not every fool can do this...", and he lifts his finger off of the imaginary key.
on another occasion we had 100+ musicians in an outdoor setting who wanted to pause for a moment in a performance, and use a vocal.
the vocal was supposed to be, "Thanks! I needed that!". but we found out after several weeks of rehearsal that it was too difficult to hear clearly outside. The volume, environment and ensemble issues made the statement itself impossible to understand clearly, so it sounded like 100+ people stopping what they were doing and shouting random crap at the audience.
one instructor finally figured out if we all said instead, "Thank! I needed that!", the vocal was suddenly very clear and understandble. Not only that but the words actually sounded properly articulated, meaning that the audience really heard the vocal as if we had all pronounced the missing 'S'.
but, as jimi hendrix, among so many others, so artfully proved, that ghosting thing works both ways, as much as the ear fills in the gaps, it also follows the suggestions, and often the busy stuff is what creates the music in the first place.
i think weather report is a perfect example of taste kept well within the realms of taste, not the extreme, but i also know a song on "this is this" (i'll never forget you) where the bass plays some whole notes (or damned near enough).
in fact, three in a row. very skillfully making sure he stops the notes as carefuly as he starts them, and myriad other nuiasciances that match the ensemble perfectly, and fill out the phrases with bass.
=P
