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Live volume problem -any thoughts

#41
georgestrings said:
Yeah, I can believe that - out of curiosity, what 410s do you have experience with???


- georgestrings
Click to expand...

These mainly:
Aguilar S410
Genz Benz Uber 410T
Schroeder 210212 (kind of like a 410)
Eden 410 XLT
SWR Goliath II 410


The 15/6/1 will NOT be as efficient as a 410, so it won't be as loud given the same power. But, given enough power, it can probably get just about as loud as most 610s. And it can take a lot of power, so I can turn my amp up much higher than with other cabinets without stressing the speakers.

From Greenboy's site:
A 15/6 is as loud as most 310 cabs with one watt input, and more extended in response. With a lot of watts it can get as loud or louder than a 610 driven to its limits, and will sound fuller and more responsive while doing it.
Click to expand...
 
#42
smeet said:
These mainly:
Aguilar S410
Genz Benz Uber 410T
Schroeder 210212 (kind of like a 410)
Eden 410 XLT
SWR Goliath II 410


The 15/6/1 will NOT be as efficient as a 410, so it won't be as loud given the same power. But, given enough power, it can probably get just about as loud as most 610s. And it can take a lot of power, so I can turn my amp up much higher than with other cabinets without stressing the speakers.

From Greenboy's site:
Click to expand...

Thanks for your answer - those are certainly some good 410s, and I totally believe your account on the matter... I remain sceptical of the 15/6/1 vs a high quality 610, however - I just don't see that happening with the PH610 or Goliath Sr I've gigged...


- georgestrings
 
#43
I appreciate your skepticism, but if you've never heard one of the new breed of 3015LF loaded cabinets, you really can't imagine how much clean volume can come out of a relatively small enclosure. And the bass response is amazing. It makes my old Aguilar 412 sound thin by comparison.

But as I said, I've never had a 610 to directly compare. I'll just say that for the size and weight, nothing I've experienced comes close.
 
#46
Wolffgang said:
I've kind of struggled with this myself, so just to be clear, if it doesn't sound like the amp is struggling, it's fine for the clip light to be on? Like, even on fairly solidly?
Click to expand...

Dialing the gain into clipping isnt a bad thing. Some people like that sound. If you can dial the gain up and still get the sound you want you are fine. On a lot of amps that clip light is more of a "You now have appropriate gain" light, not a warning.
 
#47
CL400Peavey said:
Dialing the gain into clipping isnt a bad thing. Some people like that sound. If you can dial the gain up and still get the sound you want you are fine. On a lot of amps that clip light is more of a "You now have appropriate gain" light, not a warning.
Click to expand...

Agreed - particularly with G-B's Max .2 and Streamliner series - they seem to handle being driven into their limiters better than any other hybrids I've ever played thru...


- georgestrings
 
#48
Wolffgang said:
I've kind of struggled with this myself, so just to be clear, if it doesn't sound like the amp is struggling, it's fine for the clip light to be on? Like, even on fairly solidly?
Click to expand...

FWIW, I used to have a Streamliner 600 before the 900 I currently have, and also use a ShuttleMax 12.0 sometimes - with the 600, or the Max 12.0, I would frequently run into the Limiter light with my previous band(loud 2 guitar band) - but it always sounded good, and never gave me any troubles...


- georgestrings
 
#49
georgestrings said:
Agreed - particularly with G-B's Max .2 and Streamliner series - they seem to handle being driven into their limiters better than any other hybrids I've ever played thru...


- georgestrings
Click to expand...

Excellent, I use a Streamliner! :D I read the manual about the 3DPM tube compression emulation thing, but I could never quite get it out of my head that clip light = bad. It never sounded bad, I was just afraid of the light >.>
 
#50
Wolffgang said:
Excellent, I use a Streamliner! :D I read the manual about the 3DPM tube compression emulation thing, but I could never quite get it out of my head that clip light = bad. It never sounded bad, I was just afraid of the light >.>
Click to expand...

IME/IMO, the 3DPM does just as advertised - it compresses in a manner similar to an all-tube power section, and does it in a way that sounds good... Andy and the rest of the Genz crew really did an outstanding job on these amps...


- georgestrings
 
#52
Thanks for all the great responses to my OP.

In response to some of the points made:-

My original plan when I got the PA was to run the bass through it. So far I haven't managed to get a good bass gtr sound from the PA. (Bass guitar sounds completely scooped with huge low end and ugly fizz on top. That's with using the Shuttlemax pre or a Yamaha PB-1). The PA sounds great for vocals and the drums. Given I have a good bass rig I have not prioritized getting the bass to work through the PA (Which I am sure is possible - just needs more work).

I always start from flat EQ on bass and amp at a new venue. I tend to cut unwanted frequencies at the amp and, if required, add frequency boost at the guitar.

I understand that boosting mids (or not boosting bass and treble) will allow more perceived volume. There is a limit to how far this can be done and still retain the/my desired tone.

I have looked more closely at the the input clip LED's on my Shuttlemax. The FET channel LED starts flashing at around 2 o'clock (with EQ on bass flat and channel volume at 2 o'clock, bass EQ flat and volume up full). By 4 o'clock it is flashing almost constantly. The tube channel is very different and hardly flashes at all even when the gain and channel volume are up full. Either there is something wrong with the amp (actual or indicated gain) or the LED's are poorly calibrated. (Even though the tube channel is selected, the FET channel LED is flashing away vigorously). (Both channels set to low sensitivity).

The FET channel does not sound distorted, regardless of how much its LED flashes (assuming EQ is flat, it clips horribly if the bass control is turned up).

The tube channel is very distorted long before the LED even glimmers (which the manual points out will be the case).

The 'peak' LED indicates the power amp section is maxing out. This was what really worried me as, regardless of input gain, guitar settings etc., the amp is giving all it's got. The manual states that the amp is ok to run like this so I will not worry so much next time it happens.

Given the Shuttlemax has an HPF, would an additional HPF (eg FDECK) help?

Losing perceived volume outside by not having reflective surfaces makes sense. I was surprised to see hard numbers assigned to this (e.g. -3dB, -6 dB). Is there some math behind this or are these general rules of thumb?

Once again, thanks for all the help. I like the idea of adding another cabinet, the more gear the better, but I am hoping I can work with what I have.

Cheers
Neil
 
#53
Wolffgang said:
It never sounded bad, I was just afraid of the light >.>
Click to expand...

Leftover from that tiny lady in Poltergeist?

Carol Anne: Mommy, where are you? I can't find you. I can't. I'm afraid of the Light, mommy. I'm afraid of the Light.
Dr. Lesh: Tell her to stay away from the light.
Diane: Maybe it's a way out --
Dr. Lesh: It is -- it is a way out, but not for her. Tell her, quickly.
Diane: Stay away from the light. The light is dangerous. Don't go near it. Don't even look at the light.
Carol Anne: Mommy, there's somebody here ... Mommy, somebody's coming. Mommy, help me, please! Get away from me. Leave me alone!​

 
#55
The losing lows outside is an acoustics/physics/law/rule....thing. Search up fullspace, 1/2 space, 1/4 space, etc.

When you're outside far from any walls, the omnidirectional lows radiate every direction, meaning as much of the speakers output down there is going behind it as in front. Put a wall behind the cab and the energy that would've gone behind it is blocked/reflected and now contributes to the output in front of the cab. There's your gain (or loss, depending on which way you're looking at it).

It takes double the woofers outdoors to make up for that loss. Or 1/2 the woofers indoors because of the gain to end up in the same place.
 
#56
As far as your bass tone in the PA, it works for me to use a mic or a post-eq DI send to get some flavor into the board. Then you can use both the amp controls and your channel strip in the mixer to help dial things in. Usually means turning down some deep bass to get the rumble out and using high bass/lowmids for the "fat" part of your tone instead. Similair thing on the topend, using uppermids for articulation and "attack" and dialing down the high treble nasties and clicky stuff out of the tweeters.

Works for me to get a good sound running PA from stage, etc. Just have to mess with it on your own.
 

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