Looking for advice

[primusfan1989]

Both of those singers seem like they're pretty difficult to work with, Id get rid of both and hire someone new with a better head on their shoulders

 

[smeet]

The instrumental part of the band sounds good.
On the recording, the long haired guy sounds better to me. But definitely the all unison all the time thing sounds and looks amateurish.

Good luck with your decision. Band drama sucks.

 

[redwingxix]

This is a first for me. Never saw a GD reference in a good vocals discussion

edit: Also, fire them both.

You added the word good, not me. . I meant it as more a true dual lead vocalist situation that seemed to work out as far as band dynamics went.

 

[Redaxes]

In my vast experience (2 bands that didn’t go anywhere), I did learn a couple things.
The first was the need for a solid drummer, not an issue for you.
Another is that the “drama” is toxic, if people aren’t getting along, it sours the whole thing. First band drummer was bad and toxic to the band.
Second band had issues between the guitarists/vocalists that played a big part in my bowing out.
It is easier to be good musically. Vocally it is much harder to do. First band female singer came from a musical theater background. She couldn’t make the transition to singing in a band. It reached the point where the whole thing just wasn’t getting any better. It became frustrating and no fun.
In your case, if the vocals aren’t there, you won’t go anywhere with it. Crappy vocals will doom the band despite a very good backing band.
I watched/listened to the video.
It might be a little unfair to judge based solely on it as the audio/mix isn’t great. That said, the vocals weren’t there. My 2 cents would be look for other vocal talent.
How you proceed is up to you and the band.

 

[josh-the-bass]

I only read the title and the very start,where it says that this will be a very long read...
Answer #1) Consult a good repairman.
#2) get a good teacher
#3) consult with your bandmates before letting the drummer go
#4) it's usually the player and not the instrument. Work on your playing
#5) there is no magic to reading. You just need to work on it and ideally build a routine. Things will improve!
#6) if in doubt quit or ask for more money.
#7) if you earn your own money, there should not be a reason to ask your wife or partner for permission to buy something.
Having it delivered to your work address won't work if you both have access to your internet banking.
#8) yes, it is ok to play with a plectrum, just apply it , or any other technique appropriately and don't go public before you have it down, to
avoid wasting time and public embarrassment/humiliation.
#9) I personally don't like them, but a tort pick-guard will sound as good or bad as any other.
#10) if in doubt get a P.
#11) some soundguys don't like you doing it, but running the bass directly through the PA can work really well. Just speak try to get on the soundguy's good side before asking if you can do it with his or her system.
#12) No, you do not need to put up with everything your bandleader suggests but be open for discussion before quitting if it's a good band/gig/job. If the team is good, most Bandleaders will see sense(I'd guess/hope)

honestly, why even comment?

 

[zoonose]

honestly, why even comment?

Humor based on the thread title? Talkbass wisdom at its finest...

 

[TinIndian]

Yeah I most definately do not like the 2 singer thing. It does NOT work. The band does sound good and I am also going to jump on board with the long haired singer guy instead of the other.

I am just confused on why this was thought to be a good idea to begin with?

 

[josh-the-bass]

read the whole thread. I'd get rid of them both - neither are good enough for the band behind them and both have shown unprofessional qualities.

it's a shame the players in this group are tight and get along with each other, as it sounds like you'll be walking away. then again, it's a shame one of the band put loyalties over the end product - and a product is what it is - it likely won't be the last time.

leave on good terms and find something where people are on the same page and where you are valued.

 

[40Hz]

I think much of this is a question of putting yourself in someone else's shoes. How would most of us feel if a BL brought in another bassist and asked that person to play exactly what we are already playing? Wouldn't we wonder what the point of that would be, and whether we were being replaced?

^This.

Like all show horses, singers tend to be a skittish tribe.

If you’re going to have multiple non-instrument playing vocalists, either make it MF or FF. (Women generally have more versatile voices and harmonize better anyway.) Maybe there’s a band or three that got it to work having two lead guys. But I’ve never seen a band with two males alternating lead vocal duties not degenerate into an eventual throw down. And it usually happens during an important high visibility gig.

To me it’s kinda like adopting a second adult terrier into a former one male terrier home. Better be sure it’s of the opposite sex if you don’t want to deal with constant petty turf battles.

Note: Showing up for a band rehearsal with a drink or two (or a few tokes) already in you is the kiss of death after your first warning if I’m the BL. After rehearsal is over you can throw a Roman orgy for all I care as long as you keep the noise to a reasonable level and clean up afterwards. Business first. School boy antics permitted only after we’re done rehearsing.

 

[mrcbass]

UPDATE: Had the band meeting tonight with the guitarist, the drummer, and me. Unfortunately, it went as I predicted. We talked about the current situation, and how it's not working. The guitarist brought up how he can see things from singer 1's point of view: that we added a guy as backup and now he's having to share everything 50/50 with him. We talked about the pros and cons of each singer. In the end, the drummer unsurprisingly said he has to stick by his best friend (singer 2), and his logic was that he thinks he's the better singer of the two, and that he has a lot of potential to be so much more. The guitarist also thinks that singer 2 is the better singer, and mentioned how he had become friends with him, while singer 1 is not really in contact with him and so they don't have that type of relationship. They both felt that of the two, singer 2 was the more professional. Both the drummer and guitarist were fine with getting rid of singer 1 and keeping singer 2.

I gave my two options, either keep singer 1 or get rid of both singers and look for a new one (with me preferring the latter option). When pressed, I said that it's not personal, but I just don't want to be in a band where singer 2 is the lead singer. If we were auditioning singers today, he would not get my vote. I let the drummer and guitarist know that this is completely a business decision for me, and if I leave the band it's not under bad terms, and I would love to pursue future projects with them (which I absolutely would, they're fantastic). I also said that the core of the 3 of us was very good, and we should get a singer to match.

The drummer tried to convince me that singer 2 has potential and with time I will see it. I mentioned that I don't want to take on a project that may or may not pan out. The guitarist was against getting rid of singer 2, because he didn't want to be without a singer, as that would be a step back and rehearsal wouldn't be productive. He suggested that we keep singer 2, while I look for a replacement. I said I'm not going to string anyone along and tell them "you can play with us now, but we're looking to replace you". Plus, I'm guessing that whoever I find won't be good enough for the drummer to boot his best friend.

With that impasse, I wished them well. I agreed to take a couple of days to think about it, but I really don't see me changing my mind.

Good job OP! This is exactly how I would have handled it: "This is what I need from this situation. If you guys don't like either choice, well, it's been real, thanks, see ya" in a very professional and honest way.

 

[allanhearn]

This will be a very long read, as I'm trying to give as much detail as possible to get the best possible advice.

Background: I'm in a 90s hard rock cover band that consists of 2 singers, a guitarist, a drummer, and myself. It's my 1st real band (other than playing at church). None of us really have much (if any) experience in being in a band that plays gigs.

There was a blow-up between the two singers this past Sunday. The guitarist, drummer, and myself are going to meet tonight to discuss. I have a strong feeling that this will be the end of the band.

Here's the soap opera details. At one point the band consisted of the drummer, the guitarist, and myself practicing on Sunday nights in the drummer's garage. Then we added singer 1. After jamming with singer 1, we talked about adding another person that could do backup singing, backup guitars, and backup keyboards...just fill the spots that are needed. The drummer suggested his best friend. So, singer 2 came in and practiced with the band. On his own I thought he was an ok singer, but when the two of them sang together, I thought is sounded really powerful. The drummer and the guitarist agreed.

So then starts the experiment of trying to get the two of them to sing together. Singer 2 was all for it. Singer 1 hated it. Singer 1 said he wanted to hear a recording of it before he would completely agree to it. Singer 1 never seems to be able to get along with singer 2. In situations where we'd joke with each other, if singer 2 said something about singer 1, singer 1 would take it super personal and get angry and nasty. I blame myself for not trying to put a stop to this/saying something. Singer 2 seemed to just ignore it, so rather than confront singer 1 about his behavior, I thought it was growing pains and it would get better. Sometimes when it got too heated, one of us would speak up, but we never really addressed it properly. After time the aggressive nastiness seemed to go away, and was replaced with the occasional snippy comment.

We started getting more songs down, with the weak link being singer 1 still needing to read some of the song lyrics on his phone (not having them memorized at the pace of the rest of us). We moved from practicing in the drummer's garage to having our own rehearsal studio ($300 a month split amongst the band). Pretty much from the beginning of being in the studio, singer 2 would come to practice with alcohol. At first I thought it was just because he was excited we were in our own studio, but then noticed it became a habit. At one practice, he was very obnoxious and disruptive, to the point that the drummer (his best friend) was calling him out on his behavior. He apologized at the next practice, and I thought we all moved on.

We went to an open mic night and recorded it (), and things seemed to be progressing well. Then the next practice after that open mic night, singer 1 states that he doesn't like the two lead singer format. He said he listened to the video a lot, and he's just not a fan of it. So the 5 of us discussed it, and decided that we'd pretty much split our song list in half, and each of the singers would take turns being on stage (singer 1 gets set 1, singer 2 gets set 2, singer 1 gets set 3, singer 2 gets set 4). We decided that the two singers could decide that in the coming week, and that we'd just practice songs as normal for the rest of rehearsal. The last comment on the picking of songs was, if there's a disagreement on who sings what, then they each take turns picking songs.

So that brings us to this past Sunday. The guitarist wasn't there, as his wife just had a baby. I knew the two singers would not have communicated during the week, so I brought two list printouts and two pens. The four of us arrive, and singer 2 shows off a small bottle of Jack Daniels. He offers some to the rest of us. Singer 1 and myself decline. The drummer has a little bit. Then the singers are both "now what?". I hand them the pens and paper, tell them to go outside and figure it out. The drummer and I start practicing, but about 15 minutes later the singers are back. There's confusion. Singer 1 has chosen 2/3 of the songs. What? Oh, he was on a completely different page from the rest of us. The whole split the song list in half just went over his head. He brought up how singer 2 was invited into the band on the premise of backup singing, backup guitar, keyboard, and how that never happened. How it just became "he's a lead singer, too". Singer 1 said he was still processing this. The drummer and I talked about what was discussed at the previous practice, how we specifically said that if they couldn't decide on songs then they should just take turns picking songs. Singer 1 was just sitting there dumbfounded. So we said, ok, we don't need to do the whole list tonight. Each of you pick 12 songs, and we'll start with that.

So, each of them picked a handful that were definitely "their" songs (ones that both singers agree one did better than the other, or ones that one of them didn't want to sing so by default the other one did). Then it came time to do the drafting. Singer 1 picks a song. Singer 2 picks a song, and singer 1 spends about 5 minutes complaining that singer 2 picked that song. Finally singer 1 picks another song. Singer 2 picks a song and singer 1 spends about 5 minutes complaining that he won't get that song. This continues until they each have 12 songs, and the Jack Daniels bottle is empty.

Now we're finally going to practice. Singer 1 picks a song, and we play it. Singer 2 picks a song, and we play it. Singer 2 turns down the volume on the mic before handing it to singer 1. Singer 1 complains about that, implying that singer 2 is trying to sabotage him. Singer 1 picks a song, and we play it. Singer 2 picks a song, and we play it. Singer 2 turns down the volume on the mic before handing it to singer 1. Singer 1 complains about that, implying that singer 2 is trying to sabotage him. After a couple more cycles of this, singer 2 gets really angry and points out that he's just taking care of the equipment (which is not theirs but belongs to the guitarist), and that loud popping can blow a speaker, and that singer 1 is ignorant if he doesn't understand that.

Tangent: while playing with just singer 2 I realize that for the most part I'm not happy with him as a lead man. I think his singing is just ok, and that he's not really lead singer material. I'm not relishing the thought of playing a whole set where he's the lead.

The word "ignorant" was deeply offensive to singer 1. Then begins a circular argument of singer 1 saying: singer 2 is wrong, there's no popping, and calling him ignorant was really disrespectful...singer 2 saying: there is popping, he's doing the right thing in protecting the guitarist's equipment, but not saying anything about the "ignorant" comment. After that goes on for awhile, singer 1 says, "I'll see you next week", and leaves. I decide I'm ready to leave, too, so the rest of us pack up and leave. On the way out the three of us comment on how singer 1 is a bit hypocritical as he's talked so disrespectfully to singer 2 in the past, but the first time it's done to him he flips out.

On the way home, I call the guitarist to fill him in on what went down. We decide singer 1 needs a day or two to cool down, and then we'd call him. I also find out that singer 2 has been calling the guitarist every few days just to chat, and they are starting to develop a friendship. After I get off of the phone with the guitarist, the guitarist sends me a text saying (effectively) "To be clear, I'm going to call singer 1 and give him an ultimatum - split the songs 50/50 or take a hike." I tell him that an ultimatum is a bad idea, and that he should just call singer 1 and hear his side of it. The guitarist doesn't see the point in that, as it's pretty clear what singer 1's side is, that he wants to be the only singer. He suggests that the 3 of us (the guitarist, the drummer, and me) meet to discuss things after he talks to singer 1. I suggest the 3 of us meet before we make a call to singer 1. He agrees, and we loop the drummer in and make plans to meet on Tuesday at the guitarist's house. I then get a text from the drummer telling me that he and singer 2 won't be drinking at practice any more.

I plan to go into the meeting tonight, listen to what the other two have to say, and then proceed with the following. From the beginning I've been treating this band like a business, and I'm looking at this from a business perspective and nothing is personal. As such, I see the following as the only two realistic solutions.

1: The last time the band was all on the same page was before singer 2 joined. I suggest we roll back to that iteration, and get rid of singer 2. We then talk with singer 1, and tell him that if he wants to continue as the singer of the band, he has to start doing a better job of getting the lyrics memorized so that he's keeping up with the rest of us. Also will mention that when we make band decisions, we'll probably have him verbalize how he interprets it, as we seem to be having communication issues.

2: Get rid of both singers and look for a new singer. Singer 2 was brought on board as backup, and I was fine with that. If singer 2 auditioned for the lead spot today, I would vote no, so I don't want to keep him as the lead. Singer 1 seems to have a lot of drama attached to him, and while he's a great front man, it's not worth the price. We now have a better idea of what our band goals are, and it will be easier to communicate them to potential new singers.


If you read all of that, thank you. Are there other options that I am overlooking? Do you have any suggestions?


UPDATE IN POST #71.

Had the band meeting tonight with the guitarist, the drummer, and me. Unfortunately, it went as I predicted. We talked about the current situation, and how it's not working. The guitarist brought up how he can see things from singer 1's point of view: that we added a guy as backup and now he's having to share everything 50/50 with him. We talked about the pros and cons of each singer. In the end, the drummer unsurprisingly said he has to stick by his best friend (singer 2), and his logic was that he thinks he's the better singer of the two, and that he has a lot of potential to be so much more. The guitarist also thinks that singer 2 is the better singer, and mentioned how he had become friends with him, while singer 1 is not really in contact with him and so they don't have that type of relationship. They both felt that of the two, singer 2 was the more professional. Both the drummer and guitarist were fine with getting rid of singer 1 and keeping singer 2.

I gave my two options, either keep singer 1 or get rid of both singers and look for a new one (with me preferring the latter option). When pressed, I said that it's not personal, but I just don't want to be in a band where singer 2 is the lead singer. If we were auditioning singers today, he would not get my vote. I let the drummer and guitarist know that this is completely a business decision for me, and if I leave the band it's not under bad terms, and I would love to pursue future projects with them (which I absolutely would, they're fantastic). I also said that the core of the 3 of us was very good, and we should get a singer to match.

The drummer tried to convince me that singer 2 has potential and with time I will see it. I mentioned that I don't want to take on a project that may or may not pan out. The guitarist was against getting rid of singer 2, because he didn't want to be without a singer, as that would be a step back and rehearsal wouldn't be productive. He suggested that we keep singer 2, while I look for a replacement. I said I'm not going to string anyone along and tell them "you can play with us now, but we're looking to replace you". Plus, I'm guessing that whoever I find won't be good enough for the drummer to boot his best friend.

With that impasse, I wished them well. I agreed to take a couple of days to think about it, but I really don't see me changing my mind.

 

[allanhearn]

watched the vid. Why are they singing in unison. One of them should be singing harmonies. not sure which is singer 1 or 2 but long hair guy has a better look but they sound about the same to me. two guys singing needs some vocal coordination and working out harmonies would solve a lot of your problem. or have one guy sing a verse and the other guy sing the next, then harmonize the choruses. my 2 cents

 

[LBS-bass]

So singer 2 is the "more professional" of the two even though he has a drinking problem and even though the band pushed singer 1 toward acting out by foisting this two-singer doing unison thing onto him in the first place? I think singer 1 deserves some kudos for at least trying to hang in during this fiasco and not walking away the minute this was suggested.

Yeah, sadly, I think you have made the right choice. They're not thinking clearly about this. Singer 1 was sabotaged out of the position because singer 2 was a buddy of the other guy and wanted in. There's really nothing you could do about this to make it change; it was a done deal from the start. It's a "bro" decision they are making that has little to nothing to do with who's the better fit or the better singer, though they're pretending it does.

And if they can make a decision like this after mucking this up so badly, what are they going to muck up for YOU down the road?

 

[Jimmy4string]

Get a new singer. I like @two fingers suggestion of a woman.
No harmonies is not good. I have had this problem in a band.
Those singers are meh. I don't actually sing that well but at least i put on a show
Anyway, nice bass and drums.
Good luck!

 

[Pork_Chop]

Fire the dude smoking while singing. Is that singer 1 or 2? Either way, ridiculous to smoke while singing.

 

[gorneyg]

Sorry...you lost me at "2 singers".

 

[NathOBX]

Get a new singer, neither is great, neither has a concept of harmony, singer 2 is just doubling singer 1. This is why I'm always suspicious of non-instrumentalist singers. BTW Bass, drums, and guitar are on point.

 

[wintremute]

Sorry...you lost me at "2 singers".

But it rhymes with "2 fingers".

 

[smeet]

Here's a great example of two male lead singers:

 

[Knavery]

Your biggest mistake was to hire a second singer as backing vocals and then offer him half of the original singers work! No WONDER he being so defensive about everything. He's seeing his job taken away from him before his eyes.