Double Bass Looking to upgrade

[djc03006]

I'm looking to perhaps upgrade and wanted to share my current thinking to see if anyone has some feedback. I own a Christopher carved 400 series, and a ply travel bass currently. I don't travel much so thinking of possibly selling the travel bass, and maybe selling the carved as well, and either getting one nice carved bass, or a carved and a ply.

I like my carved, but as a factory bass, it seems to perhaps have a thick top table, thus requiring more effort both pizz/bow to get a sound. So one of my top priorities is finding a bass that is a little easier to play. My guts also seem a little stiffer on this bass than I think they should be, so maybe a different bass with a thinner top would help. I've already asked a luthier about possible raised saddle, but the bridge angle didn't seem an issue (around 34 degrees if I remember). And he checked fingerboard scoop for me and planed a little down near nut, and soundpost properly fitted/positioned, new tailpiece wire, so not sure what else I can really do (action is already fairly low for guts/evah slaps at 5.5, 6.5, 8, 8 G to E).

I play mostly jazz (and thus mostly pizz), but would like to develop some arco as well. Maybe I could spend $4 - 9K on a carved bass, with a plywood as a second bass (like a Kay or Shen or other). Some sort of hybrid or perpetuals on the carved, with guts/slaps/garbos/similar on the ply bass.

Just seems I probably don't need to spend more than $10K for a bass when I play mostly pizz/jazz. But it would be great to have something that sounds good enough to encourage me to play more arco.

Couple of other questions: would a typical Kay or Shen ply have a thicker top than a factory type carved bass (e.g. Shen, Christopher, etc.)? Does a thinner-top carved generally lend itself to better/quicker playability as well as making the strings feel more flexible (as compared to a thicker top carved or plywood)?

I'm going to see Volker Nahrmann again this week. He's got a ton of basses, but most aren't set up currently for my liking, so it's hard to tell how they would feel/sound with my choice of strings/set up. I'd rather just find a bass that feels great and buy it, vs. tell the luthier what I'm looking for and have him deliver that to me and hope that I like it.

 

[BassFalcon]

If your only complaint about your Christopher is what you feel is an overly thick top, wouldn't it be more cost effective to get the top re-graduated by a master? Maybe a new Tailgut and a fancy top quality bridge? That way you keep a bass you know and love but just optimize it. Unless you just want a new and different bass, in which case, play on player. Lol. It may be a better choice to just leave the Christopher behind, I don't know, I just want to help illuminate options. Either way best of luck!
Edit: saw you already tried a new Tailgut.

 

[Francois Blais]

What strings did you try on the carved bass which you feel has a thick top?
What kind of tailpiece is it wearing?

 

[djc03006]

If your only complaint about your Christopher is what you feel is an overly thick top, wouldn't it be more cost effective to get the top re-graduated by a master? Maybe a new Tailgut and a fancy top quality bridge? That way you keep a bass you know and love but just optimize it. Unless you just want a new and different bass, in which case, play on player. Lol. It may be a better choice to just leave the Christopher behind, I don't know, I just want to help illuminate options. Either way best of luck!
Edit: saw you already tried a new Tailgut.

Thanks, I have considered a regraduation, and am meeting to get opinions with some luthiers. Might be worth it, maybe not, keeping an open mind

 

[djc03006]

What strings did you try on the carved bass which you feel has a thick top?
What kind of tailpiece is it wearing?

Regular/standard tailpiece. I've tried perpetuals, garbos, currently have evah slap EA and Gamut gut DG.

 

[Francois Blais]

A lighter (Wittner Ultra light composite) tailpiece helped my cheap ply bass to sound better.

Spirocore weichs would probably be louder than Perpetuals, while being easy to play.

 

[djc03006]

A lighter (Wittner Ultra light composite) tailpiece helped my cheap ply bass to sound better.

Spirocore weichs would probably be louder than Perpetuals, while being easy to play.

I think I'll try a light tailpiece and adjustable saddle then. Thanks!

 

[james condino]

Spirocore mitts!

 

[djc03006]

Spirocore mitts!

Yea a little higher tension than I like, but it depends on setup as well. I was playing someone's bass tonight with EA mitts and action was very low, strings were fairly easy to pluck.

 

[VictorW126]

Thanks, I have considered a regraduation, and am meeting to get opinions with some luthiers. Might be worth it, maybe not, keeping an open mind

I want to warn against reworking the bass (changing the top, etc.). Even a very good master will not be able to accurately predict the result of such complex work. The bass may sound better, but it won't have the right response. Or it will have a good response, but will lose timbre. A thinner top doesn't always mean a better sound. Judging by the question, you understand what you want to get, but this is followed by three more variables - how you explain your thoughts to the master, how he will understand them and how he will be able to embody it. When it comes to simple alterations like fine-tuning, set-ups or changing elements, this is a good way to go. But this path becomes very vague and conditional with large and complex changes. And these changes are irreversible.
Therefore, it seems like a good idea to find a ready-made bass that you can try right away. Only my opinion.

 

[djc03006]

I want to warn against reworking the bass (changing the top, etc.). Even a very good master will not be able to accurately predict the result of such complex work. The bass may sound better, but it won't have the right response. Or it will have a good response, but will lose timbre. A thinner top doesn't always mean a better sound. Judging by the question, you understand what you want to get, but this is followed by three more variables - how you explain your thoughts to the master, how he will understand them and how he will be able to embody it. When it comes to simple alterations like fine-tuning, set-ups or changing elements, this is a good way to go. But this path becomes very vague and conditional with large and complex changes. And these changes are irreversible.
Therefore, it seems like a good idea to find a ready-made bass that you can try right away. Only my opinion.

Thank you, that is my instinct as well. I will explore some simpler options with the current bass and go from there

 

[djc03006]

met with a luthier today. he suggested if i want to work on the current bass, replaning FB (too much scoop), and a regraduation of the top and bass bar. noted that it has a tightly grained wood, so he could go to town in terms of thinning out the top. $2k max cost. he feels it would make the bass more playable. downside is that it wouldn't add any value to the bass - i.e. if i decide to sell, i won't be able to recoup the cost of these upgrades.

i think for the moment i may wish to see what other luthiers think, and also keep my eyes open for a bass that is already set up great for jazz playing. also, the upper bout on my bass is standard, about 20 inches across, which makes playing in thumb position a little more challenging with the shoulder in the way more than a bass with more sloped shoulder/smaller upper bout.

 

[Ed S]

downside is that it wouldn't add any value to the bass - i.e. if i decide to sell, i won't be able to recoup the cost of these upgrades.

That is kinda key to me. How much $ are you willing to throw at this pretty good but not really incredible bass, in the hope that it ends up they way you want - when you apparently have the funds to buy a really nice bass that you will KNOW suits your needs/ear. (Of course, there is the issue of having to sell the current bass(es) if that is where you need to get the $ for the new bass.)

I'm not sure I understood - why would you want a carved AND a ply? As far as tops, I don't know about the thickness, but - of course - the plys would not be graduated as a carved.

 

[sean_on_bass]

Any consideration to a hybrid bass rather than fully carved? If you do get a new bass, that might help defray the cost a bit and still give you the functionality you need as a jazz player. Upton made a pretty awesome hybrid for me for less than $4K before shipping. Easy to play, good sound, quality components, and covers both pizz and arco. I have Spiro weichs on it.

You could also take that money in pocket and go on a bass shop tour to try a bass before you buy, without any pre-conceived brand requirements.

 

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

My main bass is over 11mm in the middle of the top and it is very responsive, and effortless to play. Some Pollmans I've played are 12mm and not hard to play at all.
There is something else going on and I think you are wise to play a lot of basses and work with a luthier.

 

[djc03006]

My main bass is over 11mm in the middle of the top and it is very responsive, and effortless to play. Some Pollmans I've played are 12mm and not hard to play at all.
There is something else going on and I think you are wise to play a lot of basses and work with a luthier.

Well it's a standard Chinese factory Christopher carved 400 series bass, so the thick top may be more of an impediment on this bass vs. another, perhaps? I've had one very experienced luthier look at it already, planning to get a few other opinions soon.

 

[djc03006]

That is kinda key to me. How much $ are you willing to throw at this pretty good but not really incredible bass, in the hope that it ends up they way you want - when you apparently have the funds to buy a really nice bass that you will KNOW suits your needs/ear. (Of course, there is the issue of having to sell the current bass(es) if that is where you need to get the $ for the new bass.)

I'm not sure I understood - why would you want a carved AND a ply? As far as tops, I don't know about the thickness, but - of course - the plys would not be graduated as a carved.

Yea, although there is also risk buying another bass that you think is great, only to find out a few months later that it's not what you thought or doesn't suit you in some way. I know and like this bass, and like the thought of upgrading the current rig.

In the meantime, I can keep my eyes open in case I fall in love or come across a great deal on another bass. I'm not set on having both a ply and a carved, just think it would be nice to have 2 basses. They could both be carved, or not.

 

[djc03006]

Any consideration to a hybrid bass rather than fully carved? If you do get a new bass, that might help defray the cost a bit and still give you the functionality you need as a jazz player. Upton made a pretty awesome hybrid for me for less than $4K before shipping. Easy to play, good sound, quality components, and covers both pizz and arco. I have Spiro weichs on it.

You could also take that money in pocket and go on a bass shop tour to try a bass before you buy, without any pre-conceived brand requirements.

Yea, I'm def keeping an open mind. I have started going to try out different basses. It's tough though since a lot of these aren't set up with nice low action and strings for jazz, at least for the one shop I went to so far.

 

[Ed S]

In the meantime, I can keep my eyes open in case I fall in love or come across a great deal on another bass. I'm not set on having both a ply and a carved, just think it would be nice to have 2 basses. They could both be carved, or not.

I have 2 myself - a ply and a hybrid. But I think my situation is a little different that yours. I play mostly BG/oldtime - which the ply w/ guts is great for. I'm working on arco and playing in a VERY low-level quartet - which the hybrid w/ Evahs/spiro E is great at. But I rarely take the "nice" bass out. All of my gigs/jams are BG/oldtime.

Just the vibe I get from you is that you are the type of player who would do well getting the best bass - new or old - you can, and then playing/gigging the heck out of it. Wear each scuff/scrape as a badge of honor - instead of treating it as a museum piece.

The Christopher is a fine bass - but it ain't all THAT. I think you'd be better off searching for a new bass that does it all for you, instead of investing $ in the hopes this one gets better. Of course, I know nothing about your $ situation - or where you are located.

Personally, my skills/dedication aren't at a level that I can appreciate/justify a $10k bass (the top of your range.). But some of the $8-12k basses I see really make me drool - and I would think would compare favorably w/ a re-graduated Christopher.

Some places have buy-back programs, where if you are not thrilled w/ your purchase, you can trade it in. Might be an option.

If considering 2 basses - what would you use them for? Would you set them up the same - or differently?

 

[djc03006]

I have 2 myself - a ply and a hybrid. But I think my situation is a little different that yours. I play mostly BG/oldtime - which the ply w/ guts is great for. I'm working on arco and playing in a VERY low-level quartet - which the hybrid w/ Evahs/spiro E is great at. But I rarely take the "nice" bass out. All of my gigs/jams are BG/oldtime.

Just the vibe I get from you is that you are the type of player who would do well getting the best bass - new or old - you can, and then playing/gigging the heck out of it. Wear each scuff/scrape as a badge of honor - instead of treating it as a museum piece.

The Christopher is a fine bass - but it ain't all THAT. I think you'd be better off searching for a new bass that does it all for you, instead of investing $ in the hopes this one gets better. Of course, I know nothing about your $ situation - or where you are located.

Personally, my skills/dedication aren't at a level that I can appreciate/justify a $10k bass (the top of your range.). But some of the $8-12k basses I see really make me drool - and I would think would compare favorably w/ a re-graduated Christopher.

Some places have buy-back programs, where if you are not thrilled w/ your purchase, you can trade it in. Might be an option.

If considering 2 basses - what would you use them for? Would you set them up the same - or differently?

Thanks for the input. Im in the northeast US. I like gut strings, so would maybe have those on one bass, and then maybe some steel or hybrids on the other, where I could work on some arco as well. so maybe keep the current gut set up on the chrissy, and then the other strings on a new one. Interesting though on the buy back option at some places...