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Lots of trouble getting usable tone from a Guild Starfire I

Boneless

Boneless

Inactive
Jan 2, 2007
1,238
1,564
Monopoli (Bari), Italy
#1
I have a Guild Starfire I (and a II as well, for that matter), and I struggle to get a good, usable, recording-quality tone out of it.

I love the bass, the look, the ergonomics, the tone *when it actually works*. It's like a rounder P.

The problem: it hates most flatwound strings.

The only strings I managed to make it work with are Ernie Ball Cobalt flats (but they're not very "flat-like") and LaBella DTFs extralight gauge (but only if I don't play hard, because the G and D strings tend to buzz at the bridge, sitar-like, when I dig in). I strongly suspect Thomastik flats would sound great as well.

This is how the LaBella DTFs sounded: https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/labella-mp3.4863581/ (I had to fit a piece of wood in the tailpiece to "stretch" the treble strings and stop them from rattling, and this way they actually sound fine! But a bit lean, I'd like them a bit fatter).

I've tried, in this order:
Ernie Ball Group II flats - warbly E and A strings
GHS Precision flats, medium scale - as above but much, much worse: https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/ghs-mp3.4863580/
Pyramid flats - extremely dead E string
LaBella medium scale DTFs - they just died on me the moment I set the witness points (which is why I'm wary of doing so in general)
Optima Chromes - terrible, dead and warbly E and A strings
LaBella Olinto flats - almost decent but lacked definition
Harley Benton flats (!) - as above but at a quarter of the price
Galli Jazz flats - dead and warbly E and A strings

A lot of money. It's not my first thread I post on the matter. I thought: maybe I should optimise for string tension. I made my own set of D'Addario Chromes, .045-.060-.080-.105 and I bought a .110 string as well since it's closer to the A string's tension. The tension this way is extremely balanced (basically all within 5lbs or so). The .110 sounded choked so I mounted the .105. It plays decently, not great but usable right now for live gigs or band practice, but yesterday I tried recording a song with it and it was frankly unusable. The bass was correctly set up (intonation was as close as it could be), I ensured the strings weren't twisted or something, but it still sounded warbly and with horrible overtones.

Bear in mind that the problem really only shows up when playing pick-style. I recorded a video just a few months after I bought it, with the Ernie Ball Group II flats, and when played fingerstyle and with a Motown-style processing (heavily compressed through a Pultec emulation with a lot of the treble filtered away) it sounded great:



I'm persevering with this bass because I *know* it can sound and feel great. I feel there must be a way to make it work.
 
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#2
Boneless said:
I have a Guild Starfire I (and a II as well, for that matter), and I struggle to get a good, usable, recording-quality tone out of it.

I love the bass, the look, the ergonomics, the tone *when it actually works*. It's like a rounder P.

The problem: it hates most flatwound strings.

The only strings I managed to make it work with are Ernie Ball Cobalt flats (but they're not very "flat-like") and LaBella DTFs extralight gauge (but only if I don't play hard, because the G and D strings tend to buzz at the bridge, sitar-like, when I dig in). I strongly suspect Thomastik flats would sound great as well.

This is how the LaBella DTFs sounded: https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/labella-mp3.4863581/ (I had to fit a piece of wood in the tailpiece to "stretch" the treble strings and stop them from rattling, and this way they actually sound fine! But a bit lean, I'd like them a bit fatter).

I've tried, in this order:
Ernie Ball Group II flats - warbly E and A strings
GHS Precision flats, medium scale - as above but much, much worse: https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/ghs-mp3.4863580/
Pyramid flats - extremely dead E string
LaBella medium scale DTFs - they just died on me the moment I set the witness points (which is why I'm wary of doing so in general)
Optima Chromes - terrible, dead and warbly E and A strings
LaBella Olinto flats - almost decent but lacked definition
Harley Benton flats (!) - as above but at a quarter of the price
Galli Jazz flats - dead and warbly E and A strings

A lot of money. It's not my first thread I post on the matter. I thought: maybe I should optimise for string tension. I made my own set of D'Addario Chromes, .045-.060-.080-.105 and I bought a .110 string as well since it's closer to the A string's tension. The tension this way is extremely balanced (basically all within 5lbs or so). The .110 sounded choked so I mounted the .105. It plays decently, not great but usable right now for live gigs or band practice, but yesterday I tried recording a song with it and it was frankly unusable. The bass was correctly set up (intonation was as close as it could be), I ensured the strings weren't twisted or something, but it still sounded warbly and with horrible overtones.

Bear in mind that the problem really only shows up when playing pick-style. I recorded a video just a few months after I bought it, with the Ernie Ball Group II flats, and when played fingerstyle and with a Motown-style processing (heavily compressed through a Pultec emulation with a lot of the treble filtered away) it sounded great:



I'm persevering with this bass because I *know* it can sound and feel great. I feel there must be a way to make it work.
Click to expand...

First of all - you sound great!
So sorry to hear you've had so many problems finding the right set of flats. I use Thomastiks on all of my semi-acoustic/semi-hollow body basses and play with a pick, love the tone and feel and have not had any issues.

Your Starfire 1 appears to be about the same scale as my Fender Starcaster Bass, so the JF324 should be the right set. They're currently about $59 on Amazon if you choose to try them.

1747942133240.png
 
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#3
When I had a Starfire 1, I had the Labella Low Tension Flats and they sounded great! I didn't have any buzz or weird overtones. They are a fairly dead sounding string, but that is what I was going for at the time. You have to be cool with somewhat floppy strings though.
 
#5
Boneless said:
I have a Guild Starfire I (and a II as well, for that matter), and I struggle to get a good, usable, recording-quality tone out of it.

I love the bass, the look, the ergonomics, the tone *when it actually works*. It's like a rounder P.

The problem: it hates most flatwound strings.

The only strings I managed to make it work with are Ernie Ball Cobalt flats (but they're not very "flat-like") and LaBella DTFs extralight gauge (but only if I don't play hard, because the G and D strings tend to buzz at the bridge, sitar-like, when I dig in). I strongly suspect Thomastik flats would sound great as well.

This is how the LaBella DTFs sounded: https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/labella-mp3.4863581/ (I had to fit a piece of wood in the tailpiece to "stretch" the treble strings and stop them from rattling, and this way they actually sound fine! But a bit lean, I'd like them a bit fatter).

I've tried, in this order:
Ernie Ball Group II flats - warbly E and A strings
GHS Precision flats, medium scale - as above but much, much worse: https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/ghs-mp3.4863580/
Pyramid flats - extremely dead E string
LaBella medium scale DTFs - they just died on me the moment I set the witness points (which is why I'm wary of doing so in general)
Optima Chromes - terrible, dead and warbly E and A strings
LaBella Olinto flats - almost decent but lacked definition
Harley Benton flats (!) - as above but at a quarter of the price
Galli Jazz flats - dead and warbly E and A strings

A lot of money. It's not my first thread I post on the matter. I thought: maybe I should optimise for string tension. I made my own set of D'Addario Chromes, .045-.060-.080-.105 and I bought a .110 string as well since it's closer to the A string's tension. The tension this way is extremely balanced (basically all within 5lbs or so). The .110 sounded choked so I mounted the .105. It plays decently, not great but usable right now for live gigs or band practice, but yesterday I tried recording a song with it and it was frankly unusable. The bass was correctly set up (intonation was as close as it could be), I ensured the strings weren't twisted or something, but it still sounded warbly and with horrible overtones.

Bear in mind that the problem really only shows up when playing pick-style. I recorded a video just a few months after I bought it, with the Ernie Ball Group II flats, and when played fingerstyle and with a Motown-style processing (heavily compressed through a Pultec emulation with a lot of the treble filtered away) it sounded great:



I'm persevering with this bass because I *know* it can sound and feel great. I feel there must be a way to make it work.
Click to expand...

Your bass sounded great on the Stevie Wonder tune. I'm assuming you were using the D'Addario Chromes?
If you're still searching, you might want to check out ( per the previous suggestion), the TI Jazz Flats. I have them on both my Fender Jazz fretless basses. Best choice I made, for me.
 
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#6
I have the Starfire II. I read the threads on them worried about string length. I ended up getting the D'Addario Chromes Flatwound (medium scale), as some folks liked them, they were in stock at my local GC that I had a gift card I wanted to use, and I could pick them up right away. I've been really happy with them so far. They are 45-65-80-110. They definitely are not sounding dead after having for a few months. Their model number is ECB81M.
 
#8
For intonation, could try lighter, more flexible flats such as short-scale Rotosound 77s or La Bella Beatle strings. Or maybe stick to EBCF?
For tone:
2thAche said:
Time for an Alembic Spoiler
Click to expand...
The first Alembic was a modded Guild, so it doesn't hurt to try some Activators in it if possible. With your current pickups (they shouldn't be bad), keeping the strings similar to EBCF should help.
 
#9
If I close my eyes and just listen to you play the track, you’re spot on nailing the grove, style and nuance of that song. This is no easy feat, so kudos to your dedication and perseverance. Note here I own this bass
IMG_0711.jpeg
IMG_0707.jpeg


P.S. In 1970 I watched Stevie play this Signed, Sealed, Delivered and We Can Work it Out live with a full band and backup vocals at Emens Auditorium in Muncie, Indiana. You nailed it.
 

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#10
Boneless said:
I have a Guild Starfire I (and a II as well, for that matter), and I struggle to get a good, usable, recording-quality tone out of it.

I love the bass, the look, the ergonomics, the tone *when it actually works*. It's like a rounder P.

The problem: it hates most flatwound strings.

The only strings I managed to make it work with are Ernie Ball Cobalt flats (but they're not very "flat-like") and LaBella DTFs extralight gauge (but only if I don't play hard, because the G and D strings tend to buzz at the bridge, sitar-like, when I dig in). I strongly suspect Thomastik flats would sound great as well.

This is how the LaBella DTFs sounded: https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/labella-mp3.4863581/ (I had to fit a piece of wood in the tailpiece to "stretch" the treble strings and stop them from rattling, and this way they actually sound fine! But a bit lean, I'd like them a bit fatter).

I've tried, in this order:
Ernie Ball Group II flats - warbly E and A strings
GHS Precision flats, medium scale - as above but much, much worse: https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/ghs-mp3.4863580/
Pyramid flats - extremely dead E string
LaBella medium scale DTFs - they just died on me the moment I set the witness points (which is why I'm wary of doing so in general)
Optima Chromes - terrible, dead and warbly E and A strings
LaBella Olinto flats - almost decent but lacked definition
Harley Benton flats (!) - as above but at a quarter of the price
Galli Jazz flats - dead and warbly E and A strings

A lot of money. It's not my first thread I post on the matter. I thought: maybe I should optimise for string tension. I made my own set of D'Addario Chromes, .045-.060-.080-.105 and I bought a .110 string as well since it's closer to the A string's tension. The tension this way is extremely balanced (basically all within 5lbs or so). The .110 sounded choked so I mounted the .105. It plays decently, not great but usable right now for live gigs or band practice, but yesterday I tried recording a song with it and it was frankly unusable. The bass was correctly set up (intonation was as close as it could be), I ensured the strings weren't twisted or something, but it still sounded warbly and with horrible overtones.

Bear in mind that the problem really only shows up when playing pick-style. I recorded a video just a few months after I bought it, with the Ernie Ball Group II flats, and when played fingerstyle and with a Motown-style processing (heavily compressed through a Pultec emulation with a lot of the treble filtered away) it sounded great:



I'm persevering with this bass because I *know* it can sound and feel great. I feel there must be a way to make it work.
Click to expand...

Beside the tone a bit on dry site , seem the EB Group II still work well with your Starfire.
 
#12
Ric Vice said:
If I close my eyes and just listen to you play the track, you’re spot on nailing the grove, style and nuance of that song. This is no easy feat, so kudos to your dedication and perseverance. Note here I own this bassView attachment 7234089View attachment 7234090

P.S. In 1970 I watched Stevie play this Signed, Sealed, Delivered and We Can Work it Out live with a full band and backup vocals at Emens Auditorium in Muncie, Indiana. You nailed it.
Click to expand...
You're too kind. The timing is not perfect, and I'm far too lazy to learn to be a good session-quality bass player. :D
 
#13
Well,
You obviously spent sometime shedding that line and it shows! Getting a Guild Starfire (I hadn’t realized they built one with P Bass pickups) to even emulate a Precision is petty amazing to me!. What I’ve noticed is that the older the Precision Basses 57-59 resonate more as the pickup’s magnets age.
That tone is similar to a hollow body bass. So you could be onto something here. Just my take of course.
 
#14
Boneless said:
I have a Guild Starfire I (and a II as well, for that matter), and I struggle to get a good, usable, recording-quality tone out of it.

I love the bass, the look, the ergonomics, the tone *when it actually works*. It's like a rounder P.

The problem: it hates most flatwound strings.

The only strings I managed to make it work with are Ernie Ball Cobalt flats (but they're not very "flat-like") and LaBella DTFs extralight gauge (but only if I don't play hard, because the G and D strings tend to buzz at the bridge, sitar-like, when I dig in). I strongly suspect Thomastik flats would sound great as well.

This is how the LaBella DTFs sounded: https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/labella-mp3.4863581/ (I had to fit a piece of wood in the tailpiece to "stretch" the treble strings and stop them from rattling, and this way they actually sound fine! But a bit lean, I'd like them a bit fatter).

I've tried, in this order:
Ernie Ball Group II flats - warbly E and A strings
GHS Precision flats, medium scale - as above but much, much worse: https://www.talkbass.com/attachments/ghs-mp3.4863580/
Pyramid flats - extremely dead E string
LaBella medium scale DTFs - they just died on me the moment I set the witness points (which is why I'm wary of doing so in general)
Optima Chromes - terrible, dead and warbly E and A strings
LaBella Olinto flats - almost decent but lacked definition
Harley Benton flats (!) - as above but at a quarter of the price
Galli Jazz flats - dead and warbly E and A strings

A lot of money. It's not my first thread I post on the matter. I thought: maybe I should optimise for string tension. I made my own set of D'Addario Chromes, .045-.060-.080-.105 and I bought a .110 string as well since it's closer to the A string's tension. The tension this way is extremely balanced (basically all within 5lbs or so). The .110 sounded choked so I mounted the .105. It plays decently, not great but usable right now for live gigs or band practice, but yesterday I tried recording a song with it and it was frankly unusable. The bass was correctly set up (intonation was as close as it could be), I ensured the strings weren't twisted or something, but it still sounded warbly and with horrible overtones.

Bear in mind that the problem really only shows up when playing pick-style. I recorded a video just a few months after I bought it, with the Ernie Ball Group II flats, and when played fingerstyle and with a Motown-style processing (heavily compressed through a Pultec emulation with a lot of the treble filtered away) it sounded great:



I'm persevering with this bass because I *know* it can sound and feel great. I feel there must be a way to make it work.
Click to expand...

“Dead” E strings is very common with new flatwound sets. The other strings will balance out with the E with some playing. It’s no reflection of the quality of the strings
 
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#18
Great playing! And sorry to hear of your struggles with flatwounds. In my experience, the E strings on the stiffer, more "old school" flats (Labella, Pyramid, GHS) always sound pretty dead and (for me at least) never really warm up. Thomastik Infelds don't suffer from this problem and always sound very even across all strings. Likewise the Fender flatwounds. Both work really well with a P pickup. Buona fortuna!
 

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