Low B muting issue - Harmonics

[Matty Koff]

So - this year I started playing a 5 string.. which lead to me also buying a 5 string fretless.

Fretted/fretless not the issue here, but between the basses - one I've learned I have to mute the low B or it will ring out if I hit any other note. Flatten my thumb against the string when I'm playing higher strings. Check. Fixed. For reference D'addario EXL165-5 Rounds .45-.135 It's a Sire P7 (P/J)m

The other - is kind of a weird bass, which is why I bought it. I wanted the weird bass as well as a fretless, and while I do pick it up here and there I don't really play it as much as my fretted bass guitars.

It's an Ibanez SRH505F, and while I probably should've left the stock strings on for awhile, I replaced them with the same set since Ibanez recommends D'addario ECB81-5. .45 to .132

This is a semi-hollow bass, using an AeroSilk piezo in the bridge with no other pickups, with gain-staging per string. This is pretty much all the information I can think of that might be significant.

My issue with this bass is when I try to mute the B string using my thumb as I've learned to do on my Sire, I get harmonics.

I've tried shifting my plucking hand position and the B string rings loud audible harmonics at any point between the end of the neck and the bridge.

I'm unsure if this is simply the string guage, or if it has to do with the pickup in the bridge, or if it's just a matter of the string needing some time and being played to "deaden" a little. But I pretty much can't seem to stop harmonics ringing out as I'm playing on the A D or G string of this bass. Where adjusting to my Sire was simply just a matter of changing how I rest my thumb.

Any ideas? Smaller guage of string? Maybe I should just throw some foam under the strings?

 

[JKos]

Look into left hand muting.

The piezo pickup and preamp are likely more sensitive to the higher harmonics then the magnetic pickup Sire.

Is the string-to-string balance properly adjusted? Is the B string louder than the others? If it is at all, turning it down would help a little.

- John

 

[Matty Koff]

Look into left hand muting.

- John

I do all kinds of left hand muting on any bass or guitar I play, care to elaborate how I'm supposed to incorporate that when my left and right fingers are playing notes on strings above the low B?

This isn't an issue for me on a 4 string btw.. this is specific to 5 string playing, where the fat low B needs more attention to be tamed than a .105 guage E string. Which I've tamed on one bass or set of strings but the other is throwing a hurdle at me.

 

[Matty Koff]

Just going to re-clarify this is to mute a B string that isn't even being played. Floating thumb is supposed to be the trick.

Scenario - I'm running a progression using the A D or G string. I use the recommended floating thumb technique to mute the strings below them. And on this particular bass, but not the other - Harmonics ring out on strings I'm not playing at all, and are inaccessible by my left hand because they are already preoccupied playing other strings.

The Open B ringing out makes sense if I don't mute. But harmonics ringing out on one bass, where they don't on another is the dilemma I'm trying to wrap my head around.

 

[Lobster11]

Using your thumb to mute the B and E -- either with the "floating thumb" or "moveable anchor" -- is pretty standard technique, especially with 5 or more strings. My guess is that it's "just a matter of changing how I rest my thumb," as you said you learned to do with the Sire. Maybe the difference is simply that because the B string is thicker/heavier, it takes a little more thumb pressure to deaden it than you're used to using -- or maybe you need to adjust your thumb angle a bit to get more flesh in contact with the string.

 

[Matty Koff]

Using your thumb to mute the B and E -- either with the "floating thumb" or "moveable anchor" -- is pretty standard technique, especially with 5 or more strings. My guess is that it's "just a matter of changing how I rest my thumb," as you said you learned to do with the Sire. Maybe the difference is simply that because the B string is thicker/heavier, it takes a little more thumb pressure to deaden it than you're used to using -- or maybe you need to adjust your thumb angle a bit to get more flesh in contact with the string.

Doesn't seem to make one iota of difference which angle I place my thumb. I've tried straight up and down behind my plucking fingers, out to the side, where from nuckle to tip the thumb is anchored on the string below the one I'm playing, where the rest of the thumb is resting on say the E and B string at like a 45 degree angle.

I'm starting to wonder if this is a matter of the gain staging with the piezo, as the sound output does seem rather hot. It's weird though, I mean, I've heard harmonics from points beyond the neck on many stringed instruments before, just mucking around playing around with the instrument. But never quite like this. Like, I could literally put a finger anywhere on that string between the end of the neck and the bridge and have a harmonic that seems like it has sustain for days with the lightest of plucks, and gives off sympathetic noise when I'm playing other strings.

Thanks for trying to help guys I think I might abuse these strings a bit.. use some JimmyM advice to deaden the strings up, as well as lower the gain settings from the pickup. As well as maybe try a thinner gauge of string.. although the open B on this weird little Ibanez otherwise sounds pretty freaking amazing.

 

[Lobster11]

There was another thread about this a while back, and for one person the problem turned out to be that his thumb wasn't exerting enough pressure against the to-be-muted string -- which in turn was because he was resting his forearm on top of the bass and dangling his fingers to pluck the strings. This way the dangling thumb was barely touching the string he was trying to mute: the perfect recipe for producing a harmonic. Is it possible that's what you're doing? I've got to think that exerting a little more thumb pressure against the string should solve the problem, and some other aspect of your arm position could be the culprit (?).

 

[Matty Koff]

There was another thread about this a while back, and for one person the problem turned out to be that his thumb wasn't exerting enough pressure against the to-be-muted string -- which in turn was because he was resting his forearm on top of the bass and dangling his fingers to pluck the strings. This way the dangling thumb was barely touching the string he was trying to mute: the perfect recipe for producing a harmonic. Is it possible that's what you're doing? I've got to think that exerting a little more thumb pressure against the string should solve the problem, and some other aspect of your arm position could be the culprit (?).

I'll examine what I'm doing more the next time I pick it up, but that was part of my reasoning for feeling baffled enough to post here, is that I was still getting harmonic overtones at a point where I was exerting much more pressure than I've ever needed to mute a string in my life. Had I applied more pressure the string would've been resting on the fingerboard or perhaps the body of the bass.

Next time I pick it up I'll lower the gain staging on the pickup in the bridge a bit and see if that changes anything. If this was also happening on my Sire, which is solid body with more traditional p/j style pickups..I'd still be wondering about technique but at this point this might be more of a hardware/setup thread.

Put a pic of the bass up just for a visual. The only pickup being in the bridge, with gain staging switches for each string on the back of the bass. In general, it is a bit noisier than my other basses and I tend to play it with more attention to detail. I'm leaning towards it being more to do with the gain settings on the pickup and the strings needing some playing to lose some of their out of the package "zing". At least that's all I can think of at the moment. I'll likely pick her up before bed or sometime tomorrow and see if I can get anywhere with it.

You saying floating thumb is pretty much the way to take care of it at least helps me confirm there's got to be something else other than technique at play here.

 

[rtav]

I use fretwraps on my basses (all 6’s) - have you tried that or some other mechanical muting device?

 

[swink]

I'm not an expert on this, but in my experience acoustic basses are hot and intend to sing quit easily.
Try to move away from your amp as far as you can, and cut back the gain on your pre amp...
An alternative right hand dampening method, is to hook your pink under the B and your ring finger under the E in combination with the floating thumb or anchor....

 

[Element Zero]

Totally get it. A very similar phenomena happened to me when I had a Pedulla Pentabuzz. No piezo though. But typically I’d get a harmonic ringing on the B string when I’d strike the E.

I’m a “through the string” type of player so there’s a bit of thump when I play a note as my finger strikes through the string I’m playing and lands on the next lowest string.

I really only noticed the extra B string harmonics on that bass when I played by myself. In the context of rock/modern country/metal/modern worship music that I play with various groups, I never once heard it coming through. Even though I knew in the back of my mind it was happening, it wasn’t an issue.

I utilize somewhat of a hybrid floating thumb method using either my ring finger or my pinky in addition to my thumb to mute the B. I’ve attached 2 pictures as examples of what I mean. I’m not sure what the answer is for you. I CAN however say that I no longer own that bass and do not experience with any of my other 5 strings. Hope this helps.

 

[Dana R Gregory]

You may want to consider adjusting the sensitivity of the piezo. There is an adjustment on the underside of the body right under the bridge. Go to the Ibanez website and find the SRF500 bass. There are instructions on how to adjust the piezo. They may be a little too sensitive. Muting with the right thumb should do the trick. Just a thought.

 

[James Collins]

Does it do it when you don't mute at all? Does it do it when you don't have a B string on it? I'm also assuming the pitch changes.

 

[nnnnnn]

I've tried shifting my plucking hand position and the B string rings loud audible harmonics at any point between the end of the neck and the bridge.

I have no experience with that bass, but that seems a bit strange.

On my five-string, when not playing notes on the B string I often have my plucking hand ring finger resting on it. Combined with floating thumb that gives (obviously) two points of contact on that string, which helps kill unwanted harmonics.

 

[Ewo]

I skimmed the posts quickly, so please excuse if someone's already mentioned this.

For muting I use the usual combination of left hand fingers flat on the upper strings and floating thumb on the lower. I've noticed that sometimes I'll get a harmonic ringing on the B or even the E string when I'm playing the upper strings. (That's the problem described in the thread starter, right?)

Best I've figured it out when that happens is that my thumb is laying across the low strings right at a node, which encourages the resonance at that harmonic. If I reposition my hand by an inch or so, it doesn't ring.

OP, I see you've already mentioned that...but are you sure it makes no difference? That tendency combined with a resonant body and hot pickup might be the explanation...

 

[Matty Koff]

Hooking the ring or pinky is a completely viable option. Will take some getting used to but that could work. I do use fretwraps, it does help tame some overtones but doesn't eliminate the B vibrating when I hit any other string alone, and also wouldn't help much with the harmonics as that ring is happening from the bridge to where ever I'm placing my thumb.

Just woke up. Will sit down with the Ibby shortly and attempt this as well as lowering the gain on the piezo a bit.

Thanks fellas.

 

[nnnnnn]

I do use fretwraps, it does help tame some overtones but doesn't eliminate the B vibrating when I hit any other string alone, and also wouldn't help much with the harmonics as that ring is happening from the bridge to where ever I'm placing my thumb

Normally with harmonics the entire length of the string is vibrating (bridge to nut or bridge to fretted note as applicable), so open string harmonics can be muted at either end of the string. I don't see how only the length between plucking hand thumb and bridge could vibrate except very briefly. (Though obviously just because I don't understand something doesn't mean it can't happen.)

 

[DeepFriedBass]

That is just strange. Honestly what you describe sounds like a design anomaly. I cant imagine a bass having harmonics everywhere, as these are usually found at key points across the string area. Must be a super hot pickup, and being In the bridge must cause additional sensitivity issues. Other than muting with both hands or rolling the left thumb over to assist the mute, adding foam to that string, not sure what to say.

 

[Matty Koff]

That is just strange. Honestly what you describe sounds like a design anomaly. I cant imagine a bass having harmonics everywhere, as these are usually found at key points across the string area. Must be a super hot pickup, and being In the bridge must cause additional sensitivity issues. Other than muting with both hands or rolling the left thumb over to assist the mute, adding foam to that string, not sure what to say.

So, just to update - I believe I've stumbled across multiple culprits. Sorry to anybody who I stumped with this, as I kind of just got around to picking it up again, have been playing my

With the hollowbody design this bass has the widest body out of any bass I've ever personally played previously, being all solid body electrics, either P bass or J bass shaped bodies, excluding a SR500 I no longer own.

Not a big deal by it self, but I also got a hankering to lower the saddle height under the B string to get it closer to the board. The way my arm sits on the forearm cutout , although I felt like I was pushing harder than usual to mute the string, and even stopped and look to see the string bending, while playing the position of my arm + width of the bass + and rather low string height on the B.. my thumb was actually lifting off of the string, creating the perfect conditions for playing harmonics.

To top it off the flats on it still had a "like" new brightness to them, that with the fatter guage of a .132 B string still new to me in the world of bass, was causing crazy loud harmonics. I can still hit harmonics in the area between the bridge and the neck, but they don't seem as loud and pronounced as they did that day, and in general I like my strings to sound like I've been playing frequently for a month.

After adjusting my arm position and making sure my thumb was sticking to the string I was able to silence the harmonics. The strings sounding like they have "aged" a little also seems to have helped tame the ringing out of the open B.. kind of feels like I don't have to think/work so hard. Next time I pick it up I'm going to raise the saddle on the B as I think it will give me more room to press that thumb into the low string while giving me more flexibility with my right arm/hand position.

Thanks everybody for chiming in. Some decent advice in here. This turned out to be a combination of posture, technique, setup, and a bright bass with new strings imo. String height apparently having a lot to do with it in relation to a seated position and the width of the body of the bass from front to back.

Fixed.

 

[JW56789]

Piezos in the early days of the Ovation acoustic electrics were often found to have almost 5v output at crazy high impedances, often why those early acoustic electrics could easily run away when plugged into a typical guitar amp front end, and have crazy ugly distortion, or sound like a strummed clavinet.

Over the years, the preamps have tamed this quite a bit, and I can only imagine what the original inputs from a five-string bass into the rest of the circuitry could hit. Ibanez and their supplier for the preamp in your axe wisely included trim pots to further tame this beast for whatever amp or board it gets plugged into. Run those trims pretty warm with new strings on a semi-hollow instrument . . . . it's on the verge of a runaway train. That it didn't feed back is testament to how far we've come.

These are great axes and glad you found a way to make it work for you. I've often thought if I owned one I'd get one of those BOSS acoustic preamp pedals to make sure everything down the line . . . . . is happy.

https://www.boss.info/us/products/ad-10/

Don't know if budget or how much work this bass will get allows, but one of those (or the earlier AD8) are excellent with acoustic guitars or basses.