Low B muting issue - Harmonics

[Lobster11]

The way my arm sits on the forearm cutout , although I felt like I was pushing harder than usual to mute the string, and even stopped and look to see the string bending, while playing the position of my arm + width of the bass + and rather low string height on the B.. my thumb was actually lifting off of the string, creating the perfect conditions for playing harmonics.

Aha! Just what I suggested in Post #7. What do I win?

Funny -- I learned my lesson about this when I first bought a Jack Casady Epi, which is a semi-hollowbody with a thick body and sharp edges. Whenever I rested my arm lazily on top of the body the edge cut painfully into the inside of my forearm. When I adjusted my position by holding my elbow out and keeping my forearm parallel with the face of the bass (and my wrist straight) I realized that not only did this eliminate the pain, but also that I could pluck with more speed and agility. So, I adopted this same position/technique with my solidbody basses as well even though their thinner, contoured bodies didn't require it. Only later did I learn that this was also a safer technique, since plucking with a bent wrist is a known recipe for developing repetitive motion injuries such as carpal tunnel.

 

[Matty Koff]

Piezos in the early days of the Ovation acoustic electrics were often found to have almost 5v output at crazy high impedances, often why those early acoustic electrics could easily run away when plugged into a typical guitar amp front end, and have crazy ugly distortion, or sound like a strummed clavinet.

Over the years, the preamps have tamed this quite a bit, and I can only imagine what the original inputs from a five-string bass into the rest of the circuitry could hit. Ibanez and their supplier for the preamp in your axe wisely included trim pots to further tame this beast for whatever amp or board it gets plugged into. Run those trims pretty warm with new strings on a semi-hollow instrument . . . . it's on the verge of a runaway train. That it didn't feed back is testament to how far we've come.

These are great axes and glad you found a way to make it work for you. I've often thought if I owned one I'd get one of those BOSS acoustic preamp pedals to make sure everything down the line . . . . . is happy.

After playing it today, the gain settings feel/sound fine. Lightbulb moment, maybe the current setting is contributing to the overall brightness of the bass, but at this point the only reason I could see to adjust them is to get the levels closer to my other axes signal output. It sounds good, was a joy to play, just probably a bit louder than them. I do seem to have a disdain for fresh strings on a 5 string, way more so than any 4 string I've played. The low B is just so touchy. The roundwound .135 B string on my sire sounded awful to me new. Overtones on most notes I played, I was thankfully able to mask with added lows from the pre-amp.. . Months later it's sounding tight and beefy even passive. More in line with the rest of the strings. I don't run a pre-amp pedal personally, and feel good playing it. I think i'm fine with EQ at the amp and the potential of the gain switches for the pickup.

Going to upload some pics to highlight the width and the forearm countour of the Ibby. Keep in mind my Sire is countoured to be a tad thinner than my Am. Special P. Upper horn of the sire, lower horn of the Ibby. Hope it helps paint a picture of the backwards angle my wrist was bending trying to mute the low B at a string height about as low as I felt like I could take it and still play it. It's twice as wide as the thickest solidbody I've owned. Pardon the mess around my stand >.<

 

[Matty Koff]

Aha! Just what I suggested in Post #7. What do I win?

Funny -- I learned my lesson about this when I first bought a Jack Casady Epi, which is a semi-hollowbody with a thick body and sharp edges. Whenever I rested my arm lazily on top of the body the edge cut painfully into the inside of my forearm. When I adjusted my position by holding my elbow out and keeping my forearm parallel with the face of the bass (and my wrist straight) I realized that not only did this eliminate the pain, but also that I could pluck with more speed and agility. So, I adopted this same position/technique with my solidbody basses as well even though their thinner, contoured bodies didn't require it. Only later did I learn that this was also a safer technique, since plucking with a bent wrist is a known recipe for developing repetitive motion injuries such as carpal tunnel.

You win a humble thank you for attempting to help me solve my dilemma friend. Thank you.

 

[JW56789]

You know, if you're wanting more thud and less roundwound boing (what esoteric terms ! ! ), you might want to check out the Thomastik strings they developed with Rick Turner for his Renaissance axes.

Turner rightly figured that axes that were piezo-only (like his or your Ibby) did not need any metal in the string, the piezos were reading vibration from the plucked string. So they have a nylon core. Not cheap from what I understand, but might be a tweak that would help out here.

Fives and Sixes with that low B will teach you to fine-tune your pickup heights, they can really boom out on some basses. Smart piezo axes feature the trim pots you axe has to ride the overall gain, but also to fine-tune the string to string balance, which helps with the 'B Boom'.

 

[nnnnnn]

I also got a hankering to lower the saddle height under the B string to get it closer to the board. The way my arm sits on the forearm cutout , although I felt like I was pushing harder than usual to mute the string, and even stopped and look to see the string bending, while playing the position of my arm + width of the bass + and rather low string height on the B.. my thumb was actually lifting off of the string, creating the perfect conditions for playing harmonics.

Glad you figured it out, though I must say I'm a little surprised that that was the issue: I'd have thought that the difference between low action and what the fretting hand would find to be unplayably high action would still be not much of a difference for the plucking hand. Live and learn I guess.

 

[Matty Koff]

You know, if you're wanting more thud and less roundwound boing (what esoteric terms ! ! ), you might want to check out the Thomastik strings they developed with Rick Turner for his Renaissance axes.

Turner rightly figured that axes that were piezo-only (like his or your Ibby) did not need any metal in the string, the piezos were reading vibration from the plucked string. So they have a nylon core. Not cheap from what I understand, but might be a tweak that would help out here.

Fives and Sixes with that low B will teach you to fine-tune your pickup heights, they can really boom out on some basses. Smart piezo axes feature the trim pots you axe has to ride the overall gain, but also to fine-tune the string to string balance, which helps with the 'B Boom'.

I like the rounds on my Sire NOW, even aged they offer a bit to the tone that the rotosound flats on my P-bass don't. The Ibby has flats on it, but the accoustic feel of the bass and perhaps the gain settings on the piezo it has been the brightest sounding bass I've ever personally played. .45-.105, I can be happy with new or old strings, round or flat, prefer some age. The low B so far, at least at .132 and .135, round on the sire, and the flats on the ibby are too touchy fresh out of the package for me so far. For the sire, and the particular set of strings the fresh out of the package low B was my only disappointment, made adjustments to my pickup heights to no avail but after time the overtones I was hearing when the strings were new faded away. The notes on that B sound tight now.

Aside from truss rod and saddle height adjustments however, with the Ibanez I believe there must've been some factory set up as out of the box the string volume itself when playing notes seems rather even, and the only string I had to adjust intonation on was the B. That's part of why I haven't fiddled with the gain switches for the piezo, as aside from my own fumbles with the B, to my ear, they sound very even.

It's just even when the strings were brand new on the Ibby, the B sounded freaking tight when I actually played it rather than attempting to mute it. Not boomy. Sounded good compared to my experience with bright rounds fresh out of the pack on the sire and the nutty overtones. I've kind of attributed that to it being a .135 round labeled "bright" fresh out of the pack lol vs flats which are going to be less bright. I'm good with the sound of my strings on all 3 of my axes currently.

I'll cross the bridge with the gain switches at the jamspace on Sunday most likely to try and get it close to the output of my P-bass and Sire, which I've been playing in passive mode while we're recording as I'm also using the P. Ibanez recommends the specific set I'm using due to the piezo, same strings that come with it stock. But I'm interested to look into the Thomastiks at some point down the road to see what's up with them.

Appreciate your input.

 

[Matty Koff]

Glad you figured it out, though I must say I'm a little surprised that that was the issue: I'd have thought that the difference between low action and what the fretting hand would find to be unplayably high action would still be not much of a difference for the plucking hand. Live and learn I guess.

I never had the strings "unplayably high" I just set it low enough to make it difficult to maintain my thumb against the B with the way my arm was resting. That B string is on the extreme side of low saddle height atm. Maybe 1-2mm higher should do the trick. And I was seated.. my bass hangs slightly lower when I stand so I'm not resting on the bass so much. I might be able to get away with the lower string height standing.

 

[nnnnnn]

I never had the strings "unplayably high" I just set it low enough to make it difficult to maintain my thumb against the B with the way my arm was resting. Maybe 1-2mm higher should do the trick. And I was seated.. my bass hangs slightly lower when I stand so I'm not resting on the bass so much.

Right, my point was that I thought the widest possible adjustment between low action and the point where it would be too high for the left hand would still not be enough of a difference to really matter to the right hand. 2mm isn't much when talking about the position of an arm...

 

[Matty Koff]

Right, my point was that I thought the widest possible adjustment between low action and the point where it would be too high for the left hand would still not be enough of a difference to really matter to the right hand. 2mm isn't much when talking about the position of an arm...

Next time I pick it up I'll take a picture of the angle of my wrist and thumb to exert enough force to bend the string and still play with the string at it's current height. It was just barely enough to stop me from maintaining enough pressure to mute, resulting in the harmonics. Like I didn't even realize my thumb was moving despite the muscles involved exerting more than usual effort when I wrote the OP. But I certainly heard the results of it. It also explains why I didn't notice this before lowering the string height. 1-2mm is a world of difference to the particular position I was playing in and would still be relatively low to the fretboard. Like room to raise it slightly beyond that 2mm even. IME my fretting hand won't even notice the difference. Again... could be specific to the seated position I was in resting my forearm on the bass. My straps hang like 2-4" lower. Whether this is an issue standing is worth investigation. Non issue sitting down with my solid bodies. The strings on my Sire are set super low right now. The ibby is thicc like whoa. Twice the girl my other basses are. Yet probably lighter weight. But the width of the body from front to back definitely affects the angle of my arm while seated.

*edit* more hindsight I think I might have started with the intention of lowering every string a touch, but for some reason stopped after getting the B as low as possible, got sidetracked and put the bass away til I picked it up before the OP. My E string might also be getting in the way. More food for thought, but I feel like it has more to do with the size of the body when seated and the B needs to come back up if I want to play sitting down.

Appreciate you giving me reasons to think. Played it for at least an hour before I chimed in with this thread and for the most part.. seems like a simple fix and I was having a good time with it this morning. She's a lovely sounding bass when you actually mute your unused B rather than play harmonics on it >.<

 

[Matty Koff]

Difficulty was pretty much the fact that the the B was lower than the other strings. Lowered the rest and raised the B and no issues now.. So - if anybody ever sees this post and is struggling to mute using floating thumb.. make sure the string you're struggling with isn't way lower than every other string. And perhaps save yourself from feeling goofy. I'm probably going to end up raising all my strings again.. because it gives me more mwah.

 

[Lobster11]

Difficulty was pretty much the fact that the the B was lower than the other strings. Lowered the rest and raised the B and no issues now.. So - if anybody ever sees this post and is struggling to mute using floating thumb.. make sure the string you're struggling with isn't way lower than every other string. And perhaps save yourself from feeling goofy. I'm probably going to end up raising all my strings again.. because it gives me more mwah.

Also, remember that the floating thumb doesn't work well if you're resting your forearm heavily on top of the bass and dangling your fingers to reach the strings, which tends to reduce the pressure your thumb puts on the muted strings. Keep that elbow out and wrist straight!