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Low Down Sound 15/6.5 Cab

#281
Ken, I thought this fixed installation PA cab might interest you. It's the [Invalid or Expired Link Removed].

Link Removed

It's using a 410 woofer configuration precisely because a 2x2 woofer configuration has a tighter dispersion pattern as it climbs out of the omnidirectional low frequencies. And that matches up with the waveguide which provides a nominal 60 x 40 degree "tight" axial response.

So. It's all about intended application more than anything : }
 
#282
greenboy said:
Ken, I thought this fixed installation PA cab might interest you. It's the [Invalid or Expired Link Removed].

Link Removed

It's using a 410 woofer configuration precisely because a 2x2 woofer configuration has a tighter dispersion pattern as it climbs out of the omnidirectional low frequencies. And that matches up with the waveguide which provides a nominal 60 x 40 degree "tight" axial response.

So. It's all about intended application more than anything : }
Click to expand...

Very interesting. I've never seen anything like that. I want that:D
 
#290
KJung said:
That mix and match can result in a yin yang that can easily result in a 'more flat voiced cab' sounding 'less flat', and a 'more voiced cab' actually moving toward a more even tone, given how the inherent peaks and valleys in the preamp voicing, cab, and especially the instrument, line up. IMO and IME!
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Odd. On the one hand the argument is made that highly colored response from a speaker is a good thing. OTOH when it comes to amps it seems that flat response is so strived for that many players refuse to even consider running their EQ anywhere but in the 'flat' position. :hmm:
More odd, that so-called 'flat' position is anything but flat, as all amps have a built in pre-shape. :confused:
Most odd, more often than not those who insist there's no benefit to a speaker with flat response are the same who insist that they only want flat response from their amps. :rollno:
Oddest of all, in a recent speaker testing session many players found the tone of the test cab a bit bright for their taste, and automatically looked for a LPad to turn down the HF driver level. The cab didn't have an LPad, so they were told to turn down the HF EQ on the amp. Most of them recoiled at the very idea of using the amp EQ to reduce the high end, and were absolutely clueless that so doing had exactly the same effect as turning down an LPad on the cab. :hiding:
 
#291
billfitzmaurice said:
Odd. On the one hand the argument is made that highly colored response from a speaker is a good thing. OTOH when it comes to amps it seems that flat response is so strived for that many players refuse to even consider running their EQ anywhere but in the 'flat' position. :hmm:
More odd, that so-called 'flat' position is anything but flat, as all amps have a built in pre-shape. :confused:
Most odd, more often than not those who insist there's no benefit to a speaker with flat response are the same who insist that they only want flat response from their amps. :rollno:
Oddest of all, in a recent speaker testing session many players found the tone of the test cab a bit bright for their taste, and automatically looked for a LPad to turn down the HF driver level. The cab didn't have an LPad, so they were told to turn down the HF EQ on the amp. Most of them recoiled at the very idea of using the amp EQ to reduce the high end, and were absolutely clueless that so doing had exactly the same effect as turning down an LPad on the cab. :hiding:
Click to expand...

Nothing strange about this at all. The key is, very few pieces of gear are 'flat', and the combination of pieces of gear (cabs and heads) with slightly different voicing can REALLY make a difference (especially when combined with the voicing of an instrument). This is especially so given the fact that, as you correctly point out, most bass heads are not flat, and don't have the exact EQ points and EQ power to make them that way (if you would actually want that anyway).

IMO and IME, a 'highly colored' response from a cab is neither a good thing nor a bad thing. It all depends on the entire signal chain (head voicing, bass voicing, technique) and the tone goal of the user.

Also, your comment that turning down an LPad would be the same as turning down a treble control and or upper/mid control on an amp (which can have almost an infinite number of frequency center points, slopes, shelving start points, etc. when comparing EQ across amps, much less taking into account the different inherent voicing of each amp independent of the EQ controls) continues to reinforce my belief that you know a LOT about technical speaker design, and VERY little about amplifying the bass guitar in a live setting:smug:
 
#292
I’ve been meaning to ask, about the often touted description of flat tone settings of amps/cabs used here on Talk Bass, if others felt that part of the achieved tonal equation was missing.

What I am referring to, although someone may have included the info in the past and I missed it, is no one ever seems to include what the setting for Flat is as relates to the bass that they use.

As a for instance, when using a Fender P-Bass, is flat wide open Volume and Tone Controls or is it wide open Volume and completely rolled off Tone Control? Obviously the active electronics side could possibly define a reference point from those with cut/boost & center detent tone control or the boost only family of tone control. Even though it may be implied the bass EQ itself is usually not mentioned.

For some reason, IMHO, it may help all Talk Bass Members by giving this additional information as a reference point when discussing the tone of an amp set Flat.

Cheers,

Mr. BEAR
 
#293
You're actually right I think KJ - in regards to the LPad thing. I don't think turning down the Treble is likely to have the same effect - because the Treble center point and Q is going to be different on almost any amp.

However, if you have a semi-para (like my amp) or a graphic (like many amps) you can do what Bill is talking about. But again that depends also on the crossover point in the cabinet - as long as you know where the xover point is you can pick out where to hide or reduce tweeter frequencies.

That goes back to my comment earlier about most bass amps having inadequate EQ sections, though :P They're generally designed assuming there is an L-Pad and that bass players are not smart enough to work a graphic or a parametric EQ. Exceptions abound of course, but good luck mimicking an LPAD with a Fender tone stack with no ability to cut treble.
 
#294
rpsands said:
You're actually right I think KJ - in regards to the LPad thing. I don't think turning down the Treble is likely to have the same effect - because the Treble center point and Q is going to be different on almost any amp.

However, if you have a semi-para (like my amp) or a graphic (like many amps) you can do what Bill is talking about. But again that depends also on the crossover point in the cabinet - as long as you know where the xover point is you can pick out where to hide or reduce tweeter frequencies.

That goes back to my comment earlier about most bass amps having inadequate EQ sections, though :P They're generally designed assuming there is an L-Pad and that bass players are not smart enough to work a graphic or a parametric EQ. Exceptions abound of course, but good luck mimicking an LPAD with a Fender tone stack with no ability to cut treble.
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+1 It all depends:smug:

Again, no offense to Bill (Edit: I retract this based on Bill's post below.... ! I stand by my original statement!). He got a little snarky and I got a little snarky back. My only point is, it's not as black and white as some would make it out to be, and to me, the whole concept of 'flat' is better left alone in electric bass amplification (or at least only talked about in relation to the entire signal chain). IMO!
 
#295
KJung said:
+1 It all depends:smug:

Again, no offense to Bill. He got a little snarky and I got a little snarky back. My only point is, it's not as black and white as some would make it out to be, and to me, the whole concept of 'flat' is better left alone in electric bass amplification (or at least only talked about in relation to the entire signal chain). IMO!
Click to expand...

I'd say since Flat is the only real basis for comparison it's pretty valuable but you're right - you've got to know what's changing it in every location even down to the space you put your cabinet in.

I like to play a pretty flat bass into a pretty flat amp into a pretty flat cab, and then eq the amp to my taste, but that's no more "correct" than anyone else's approach. Getting a decent bass sound in a mix is not rocket science, and you can do it with pretty much any amp combination.

The ballgame changes if you want two drastically different sounds, or if you want things that cannot physically be reproduced out of portions of your signal chain.

For example, if you have a 4-string bass and want a low F#, you're not gonna get it. Similarly, if you have an Ampeg 8x10 and want a low F#, you're not going to get it.
 
#298
KJung said:
Again, no offense to Bill.
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Offense taken. Your comment about my live sound skills could only be justified if you heard me live. Not that it's not possible, having played some 5,000 odd live shows over the last 45 years you may have been in the audience for at least one. Nonetheless, your comment is not only offensive, it's unprofessional, and IMO gives you bush-league status.
 
#299
billfitzmaurice said:
Oddest of all, in a recent speaker testing session many players found the tone of the test cab a bit bright for their taste, and automatically looked for a LPad to turn down the HF driver level. The cab didn't have an LPad, so they were told to turn down the HF EQ on the amp. Most of them recoiled at the very idea of using the amp EQ to reduce the high end, and were absolutely clueless that so doing had exactly the same effect as turning down an LPad on the cab. :hiding:
Click to expand...

Bill,

With all due respect exactly how is this the EXACT same effect? Especially considering the wide variety of high/treble controls on many different amps.

Pete
 
#300
KJung said:
Back on topic, Don is bringing over another 15/6.5 with a different crossover (not sure what it is) tomorrow, late morning for me to bang on. I'm not sure who's it is, but I'll post up.
Click to expand...

Ken is there anyway you could have Don bring over a 1300hz 156 cab too so you can compare it side by side?

I've thought about trying another RP xover high passed lower, but that would create over lap and I'm not sure how that would effect the sound, maybe a spike in db at the overlap points?

The reason I'm thinking lower high pass point is to get better off axis response from the mid. I haven't heard the cab yet, just thinkin' ahead just in case. I may like the upper mid spike of the 15KLLF as is.
 

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