I don’t find Eurosonic lights or extra-lights to be stiff.
Their synthetic outer wrap is more flexible than steel strings with a metallic outer wrap.
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Double Bass Low-tension string help
- Thread starter Silverface
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Their synthetic outer wrap is more flexible than steel strings with a metallic outer wrap.
I didn't say that they are stiff, but pressing a string down does elongate the string (triangle with the string in the unpressed state) and the higher the string height, the higher the elongation (more in upper positions than in lower ones). So strings that stretch more easily like the synthetic core strings (Obligato, Evah Weich etc.) are a lot easier to press down than less stretchy steel core strings.
I'm talking about the length stretch, not bending stiffness.
But a stretchier string usually also gets to easier bending quicker than less stretchy strings, because the microspace between the windings that evolve due to the stretching core allows bending with less pressure of the windings to their neighbors.
Of course a synthetic winding needs less force to deform it with bending, so a synthetic wound steel core string is rather flexible, but does not elongate easily because of the low stretch steel core.
I'm not just thinking about "stiff" strings. I realize these threads can have the original question last along the way once there are replies to replies - so to repeat myself:
The bass has a neck heel repair that seems to be holding with Weedwackers, but I'm not confident about it holding up under much more tension. I want to improve the sound - but need to keep the tension as close to the Weedwackers as possible to prevent the neck from coming apart *and* for playing ease.
If the neck blows I'm done - with what the bass cost me and what I'll be using it for a neck repair cost would be completely out of the question, plus I have no way of having it transported anyway.
No bowing and fairly rudimentary, casual low-position playing only at home.
The bass has a neck heel repair that seems to be holding with Weedwackers, but I'm not confident about it holding up under much more tension. I want to improve the sound - but need to keep the tension as close to the Weedwackers as possible to prevent the neck from coming apart *and* for playing ease.
If the neck blows I'm done - with what the bass cost me and what I'll be using it for a neck repair cost would be completely out of the question, plus I have no way of having it transported anyway.
No bowing and fairly rudimentary, casual low-position playing only at home.
What about a set of rotosound? I had a set for about 20 min, they weren't for me, but they were very light in tension.
After looking in my Excel sheet and my personal string tension measurements:
Evah Slaps (low tension but even used rather expensive)
Indian Tiplop gut strings (might have the same problem on the low strings since they are naked gut)
Efrano Elite light (or medium) gut strings (wound gut might not work well in your climate)
SuperSensitive Sensicore (data only for high C, extrapolating, but commonly used by Slappers)
Innovation Silver (or Golden) Slaps (a bit more tension on the E,
Innovation Psycho Slaps might be even lower tension)
Velvet Compas 180 Solo (in orchestral tuning, but expensive, even used)
If you still want to try steel core (what I can not recommend):
SuperSensitive Pinnacle (discontinued, extrapolating from a high C)
Savarez Corelli 360M (Solo strings tuned at orchestral tuning)
Anything else I know has either more tension (like Spiro Solo) or is very (!) expensive.
You might want to keep the Weedwhackers and get only an E from a different set.
Some dealers sell single strings also, not just complete sets. But stay with the string sets mentioned above and avoid steel core (because of your problems with the Romberg bevel). Otherwise you will get a strong tension mismatch and get too much tension for your left hand and your instrument.
You might want to ask at the DB slap players subforum, since they are more familiar with very low tension DB string sets. Just stay away from steel core strings. Better for your hands...
Evah Slaps (low tension but even used rather expensive)
Indian Tiplop gut strings (might have the same problem on the low strings since they are naked gut)
Efrano Elite light (or medium) gut strings (wound gut might not work well in your climate)
SuperSensitive Sensicore (data only for high C, extrapolating, but commonly used by Slappers)
Innovation Silver (or Golden) Slaps (a bit more tension on the E,
Innovation Psycho Slaps might be even lower tension)
Velvet Compas 180 Solo (in orchestral tuning, but expensive, even used)
If you still want to try steel core (what I can not recommend):
SuperSensitive Pinnacle (discontinued, extrapolating from a high C)
Savarez Corelli 360M (Solo strings tuned at orchestral tuning)
Anything else I know has either more tension (like Spiro Solo) or is very (!) expensive.
You might want to keep the Weedwhackers and get only an E from a different set.
Some dealers sell single strings also, not just complete sets. But stay with the string sets mentioned above and avoid steel core (because of your problems with the Romberg bevel). Otherwise you will get a strong tension mismatch and get too much tension for your left hand and your instrument.
You might want to ask at the DB slap players subforum, since they are more familiar with very low tension DB string sets. Just stay away from steel core strings. Better for your hands...
I'd go with innovation gold or silver slaps. They have just a little less tension than guts and a little more than whackers (IMO). If bassworks still made tricores, I'd say do those for an E and A. They had less tension than the innovations but still had a lot of clarity.
Due to arthritis in my right hand and a very bad metacarpal break I'm always looking for the perfect balance between having light tension but be able to play fast slaps.
I've tried
Rotos- too tight for me
wrapped gut E-A plain D-G- Hated the string clack but tone was awesome/ low tension
Bumped gut Wrapped A, plain G,D,C- Not bad for my arthritis and hand issue but too sloppy for fast slaps
Plain bumped guts- too sloppy for speed
Plain guts- Loved them but hated dealing with issues that guts have (still have them in a box just in case)
Bassworks whackers (bumped and not)-Bumped too sloppy and regular had crappy E thud
Mix of Tricore E and A with said whackers- Real nice tone. I'd use and E with gut A,D,G but they don't make them now
Innovation Golden Slaps- My current favorite. Low tension (little more than whackers but not much, nice tone and very stable
I'm tossing around the idea of a gut D, and G with the innovations because I'm not a big fan of the G but I might just stick with this and deal with the tone
Due to arthritis in my right hand and a very bad metacarpal break I'm always looking for the perfect balance between having light tension but be able to play fast slaps.
I've tried
Rotos- too tight for me
wrapped gut E-A plain D-G- Hated the string clack but tone was awesome/ low tension
Bumped gut Wrapped A, plain G,D,C- Not bad for my arthritis and hand issue but too sloppy for fast slaps
Plain bumped guts- too sloppy for speed
Plain guts- Loved them but hated dealing with issues that guts have (still have them in a box just in case)
Bassworks whackers (bumped and not)-Bumped too sloppy and regular had crappy E thud
Mix of Tricore E and A with said whackers- Real nice tone. I'd use and E with gut A,D,G but they don't make them now
Innovation Golden Slaps- My current favorite. Low tension (little more than whackers but not much, nice tone and very stable
I'm tossing around the idea of a gut D, and G with the innovations because I'm not a big fan of the G but I might just stick with this and deal with the tone
I have used Efrano naked gut G and D with Innovation Silver Slaps A and E for a short time and this is a nice combination.
I would say the Silver Slaps are slightly higher tension than wound gut (Efrano Elite medium), but gut strings come in a wide range of tension. The Slappers gut (like the Efranos) are usually 20 kp for the G a bit less for D. Wound gut is higher tension 23 to 25 kp, naked gut even further go down than the D.
But the Silver/Golden Slaps seem to be the best compromise for the OP.
Bumped strings (using high C to A for G to E, a fourth below intended pitch is one more option, but the the original pitch needs to be rather high tension otherwise the tuned down tension might be too low to be useable.
In that case steel core might be a better option than synthetic.
But often the high C strings are hard to get and won't fit well to the regular set tensionwise. They are also very thin in steel core and often sound thin. Thicker high C strings like gut or synthetic core usually sound fuller in the lower positions. So, again synthetic core strings ...
I've become quite lost in the poster-to-poster exchanges and tension "numbers" I have no baseline for. The instrument's possibly precarious neck situation also seems to be either unimportant or...I don't know. And I said nothing at all about wanting steel anything strings, so I' not sure what that's all about.
From what I've seen gut strings are even higher priced than the Innovations - if so they're completely out.
Again - 3 issues: 1) Left hand/wrist; 2) neck repair; 3) cost (I paid $300 for the bass, am on a fixed income, and $200 or so for strings just doesn't make any sense in *my* context. I understand it does to others. But it doesn't for me. When I posted this the few string prices I'd seen weren't higher than a bit over $100/set. Yeah, I may be ignorant - but it's the perspective I have to deal with.).
From what I've seen gut strings are even higher priced than the Innovations - if so they're completely out.
Again - 3 issues: 1) Left hand/wrist; 2) neck repair; 3) cost (I paid $300 for the bass, am on a fixed income, and $200 or so for strings just doesn't make any sense in *my* context. I understand it does to others. But it doesn't for me. When I posted this the few string prices I'd seen weren't higher than a bit over $100/set. Yeah, I may be ignorant - but it's the perspective I have to deal with.).
This is the true nature of TalkBass. Confusion, opinion, strong willed assertion, conjecture.
There have been some good suggestions, and unfortunately there is no "perfect string." I'm on the hunt myself and I've been through at least 5 different sets of strings, and permutations of them. Most have been through many more.
The used set of innovations here may be a good idea provided the price is right. Guts are stupidly expensive, you're right. Any set of solo strings downtuned may be a good fit for you, especially if you're just wanting to get some sound out of the box and not hurt your hands or the instrument. I currently have two guts (D and G), but use the A, and D from a medium set tuned to to E and A, which is REALLY low tension, and would probably be perfect for you using the A D and G, but you'd need to figure out the real G. Perhaps downtuning the stark set would be better.
Keep an eye on the classified section here for light, solo, or "slap" type strings, and you'll probably luck into a good deal. The hunt is a pain, but its cheaper than buying new.
Oh, I know how forum discussions go - I was just trying to get it back on track.
I agree that it seems like I'll just have to take my best shot with the classifieds. It's difficult for me to compare tension when I don't know what my baseline actually is and so many strings seem to be marketed without tension specs. As an instrument tech I find very surprising.
The idea of using an A as E, D as A...and I suppose 2 G strings if I can find one with a different gage...is a possible solution. I can at least test gage changes on the E and A and see how it goes.
Thanks all for the ideas, and any other thoughts are welcome!
I agree that it seems like I'll just have to take my best shot with the classifieds. It's difficult for me to compare tension when I don't know what my baseline actually is and so many strings seem to be marketed without tension specs. As an instrument tech I find very surprising.
The idea of using an A as E, D as A...and I suppose 2 G strings if I can find one with a different gage...is a possible solution. I can at least test gage changes on the E and A and see how it goes.
Thanks all for the ideas, and any other thoughts are welcome!
If I have had Weedwhackers, I would have measured them and helped you with numbers. Unfortunately I haven't. But I guess from what wrote others that they are around 17 to 18 kp per string.
Bumping a string (tuning a fourth lower than intended) gives you 44% less tension. So if you plan that, better find a string set that includes a high C and is over or around 30 kp per string.
Don't use two G strings for G and D. Tune your D down to A and play octaves on the two strings and you know why this is a totally unacceptable tension mismatch. No high C tension mismatch with the regular set can be as large as using a G instead.
Feel free to ask me about high C strings, I think I have about 14 different ones tested and might even help you with tension values if you have some specific set in mind.
I might add a column for the tension of bumped strings in a later version of my Excel file. Didn't thought of that when I made it.
Until then you might want to consult your pocket calculator or the JavaScript HTML-file Formulas.html in my Dropbox folder to recalculate string tensions.
Bumping a string (tuning a fourth lower than intended) gives you 44% less tension. So if you plan that, better find a string set that includes a high C and is over or around 30 kp per string.
Don't use two G strings for G and D. Tune your D down to A and play octaves on the two strings and you know why this is a totally unacceptable tension mismatch. No high C tension mismatch with the regular set can be as large as using a G instead.
Feel free to ask me about high C strings, I think I have about 14 different ones tested and might even help you with tension values if you have some specific set in mind.
I might add a column for the tension of bumped strings in a later version of my Excel file. Didn't thought of that when I made it.
Until then you might want to consult your pocket calculator or the JavaScript HTML-file Formulas.html in my Dropbox folder to recalculate string tensions.
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I agree with krfoss about the classifieds. I've gotten all my guts from them except for 1 G after I broke the one I had. I gave no tension numbers because I had none but I thought my perspective from a right hand injury might help and the fact that I run low tension strings. I can't comment on the neck of your bass since I've never seen it BUT because of the repair, low tension strings wouldn't hurt. As far as the price point, once again, go with the classifieds. I listed all the string combos I've done to give you some ideas and my opinions of them.
If that was a sidetrack, sorry. Enjoy your bass
If that was a sidetrack, sorry. Enjoy your bass
Being math phobic that's a bit doubtful!
I wasn't real clear about the "two G strings". I would not use two of the same gage, I'd try to find different ones. I'm used to working with gages and tension variables on several other instruments, so I understand what two strings of the same gage but a 4th apart would feel/sound like.
If those tension numbers for nylon are reasonably close they give me at least a bit to go on (it's hard to tell though - as I mentioned earlier I have the Kevlar-core Weedwackers installed).
But no matter what I'll probably end up with a compromise.
And to clarify again - this bass is just used at home for VBERY casua;, VERY part-time, low-position playing with no bowing & no slap. I'm just trying to get the E and A somewhat "clear" without blowing the neck repair apart or causing myself more left wrist issue than I already have (which is pretty nasty).
Nothing has to be all that precise, perfect, or "normal". Just playable and hopefully with notes that are recognizable.
No, not sidetracked at all - thanks!
If you not even have a look at these files, then you are on your own.Being math phobic that's a bit doubtful!
I wasn't real clear about the "two G strings". I would not use two of the same gage, I'd try to find different ones. I'm used to working with gages and tension variables on several other instruments, so I understand what two strings of the same gage but a 4th apart would feel/sound like.
You don't need to know or calculate yourself, that's what the files do for you. The formulas are printed only to show how these numbers are calculated and to be reused for your own projects if you want to use them.
It makes not much sense to use two different G strings for G and D. Either bump a high C and a G or use very low tension G and D.
Use the string data from my Excel file to get tension data and formulas.html to find the tension for a bumped string (enter -4 for detune).
It's up to you what you do, but I'm rather sure you won't reach your goal cheap if you don't check things yourself.
You said "use your pocket calculator...recalculate..." which seems different from filling in numbers.
I'd be happy to look at them - except I have no idea where your dropbox folder is. I may have missed it - unless a response was directed to me I didn't catch all the posts - there have been quite a few lengthy internal thread discussions outside of my OP - I just took a quck look but didn't see it. Ifyou could post a link I'd appreciate it.
OP (doublemidi, I know this isn't you), I'm in Fullerton, and if you wanna try a bass with the A and D string used as the e and a, let me know and we can meet up for you to try it out. It feels really good, but you're definitely limited on volume acoustically.
I got tired to post the link again and again, so I said how to search for it. You might have missed that.
Here it is once more:
Dropbox - Talkbass
And typing numbers from a given formula into a pocket calculator is not that difficult. There are even nice and free formula calculators for your smartphone where you can enter the formula as given and then only enter the parameters needed like standard tension and detune to get the result.
As I mentioned earlier I'm disabled - can't get out anywhere, but thanks.
You would be surprised. "Math phobic" was not a joke and it can be FAR harder than you think.
Thanks for posting the link.
