Double Bass Magnetic Pickups - Why Aren't We All Using Them?

[Ric Vice]

I had experience with two different magnetic pickups, in the late 70's. Toby Guynn built a dual element pickup that was attached to the end of the fingerboard. [Invalid or Expired Link Removed]. Paul Tonnenges, built a four element adjustable magnetic bass pickup that I had installed on my bass. It's only advantage was not feeding back, it sounded like a bass guitar.

When I purchased my Clevenger (Keyhole) EUB, I opted for the additional dual Bartolini magnetics that were attached to a special mount on the underside of the fingerboard. Those pickups are super quite, and blended very well with the piezo pickups mounted below the bridge. In this case they filled out the sound of the EUB, and were in that way successful. I don't find them to be appropriate for Double Bass.

Ric

 

[Whit Townsend]

Gigged with the Krivo last week. Low vol gig w no drummer, just my SWR WM12 w no PA support. Am very pleased. Sound was fine. No fuss no hassle. No extra boxes on the floor or eq to twiddle beyond the amp controls. Plug and play. Im sold. I've always hated trying to eq piezos. From now on if I need a more natual sound, I'll just stand in front of a mic. Thank you Bob G! for simplifying my life.

Only 2 ways to improve the thing
1. Add a vol control
2. Come up with a sturdier jack mount.

 

[CostanzaWallet]

How does it actually mount? In the pictures I've seen, it looks like the fingerboards are a lot closer to the bass body than on my bass. On mine, there is a distance of about 4" from the body to edge of the fingerboard. Would I have any difficulty installing it on my instrument?

 

[David Jayne]

In my opinion - Pianos are different. The iron 'harp' holding the strings is very heavy, strong and stiff, in order to withstand the incredible tension it sees(more than 60,000 pounds in a grand piano !) The strings pass over the bridge very near their anchors on the harp, and at a very shallow angle. The bridge and soundboard are very lightweight. Thus the strings rule the tone game almost entirely - you're hearing the tone of the strings with minimal reflected influence from the vibrating parts which serve only to amplify the string sound. So a mag pickup is entirely reasonable in a piano.
A bass obviously works in a very different way, where the entire, rather flexible structure is used to produce sound. To get it you need to listen to the wood AND the strings.

 

[Whit Townsend]

How does it actually mount? In the pictures I've seen, it looks like the fingerboards are a lot closer to the bass body than on my bass. On mine, there is a distance of about 4" from the body to edge of the fingerboard. Would I have any difficulty installing it on my instrument?

The Krivo mounts with a very heavy duty velco sticky tape. The sicky side of the tape sticks to the end of the fingerboard and to the pickup, and the 2 piece of velcro secure to each other. I know it sounds rather flimsy, but its not. Its actually very heavy duty stuff and the pickup is on there very solid.

 

[Mark Gollihur]

The Krivo mounts with a very heavy duty velco sticky tape.

Just to clarify, it's actually Invalid Link Removed, which is - as Whit mentioned - considerably more secure than normal Velcro.

 

[jmlee]

The Biesele pickup mounts with a clever clamping system that's going to be more secure (especially during transit) than any velcro-type mounting.

 

[Ampig]

I've found out--at least in my experience that the speaker was the biggest problem. Bass and setup next---and then the pickup.

Mike, could you elaborate on that? Right now I'm putting an Englehart EM-1 with a K&K Bass Max twin through a Radial Engineering PZ Pre Tonebone preamp into a Genz Benz Shuttle 6.0-12T. I'm always fighting that tubby mid range sound and looking for more warmth. Maybe it's the speaker. I guess this might be a thread hijack. Should I ask this in a separate post?

 

[Les Fret]

The Biesele pickup mounts with a clever clamping system that's going to be more secure (especially during transit) than any velcro-type mounting.

Yes but the clamps can damage your fingerboard. I also own a Biesele. I always detach mine when I am not using it. Some say the extra weight on the fingerboard alters the tone or sustain. Not sure if this is true (?).

 

[jmlee]

No evidence of either with mine.

 

[David Jayne]

Just to clarify, it's actually Invalid Link Removed, which is - as Whit mentioned - considerably more secure than normal Velcro.

Dual - Lock is nuke proof. My accessory motorcycle windscreen attaches to my bike with four little circles of it. Very tough stuff. It goes together with a 'snap' and doesn't wiggle around at all.

 

[fdeck]

Just for the record, here's my homemade mag pup. The coils are pulled out of a couple of surplus stepping motors, and each one has a small rare-earth button magnet inside it. The black stuff is just black plastic cut from the sleeve of a 3.5 inch floppy disk (yes it's that old) strictly for decoration. It attaches like the Biesele, but the clamps are padded with rubber from a bike innertube. The rest of the structure is made from pieces of 1/4 inch thick acrylic plastic. It has an extremely low output impedance and weak signal. For a time, I stepped it up with a transformer, then built a little preamp for it.

You can see how it's built specifically for this bass.

I was able to get stoopid loud with this thing, which was both a blessing and a curse. At the start of my bass playing "career" I found myself in bands that played really loud. But of course being able to play with low action and a light touch did little for my technique or tone quality. I was treating it like a big electric bass.

When I got the new bass, I did not build a new mag pup.

 

[zorf]

Charlie Helpinstil made piano mag pickups which were very popular in the seventies before romplers showed up.
They were the only way to get a piano sound in a loud stage volume situation.
All the big names used them.
He is still around and still making them.
He made me a couple of pickups for DB.
I still have one.
It sounds good.
I used the Schaller for a while when i needed
something less quacky than my piezo. and you could adjust for string balance.
Picked up some 60 cycle hum, but sounded Ok.
Also, once had a P bass pickup custom installed
but it had such a stoopid amount of low bass, that i tore it off in horror. looked dumb, too.
now i would have figured out that i could just lower the pickups. Doh.
I think of all these pickups as a kind of a bass version of an arch top guitar with a floating mag pickup. In the same way that a jazz arch top is neither a telecaster nor a dreadnought. It's something in a unique category.
Or, if you are going to play with loud musicians, bring a slab or EUB.

Yikes! While editing this post, i just got a great idea for a pickup solution.
I'm going to be rich!
Wait... there are only 100 people in the world who would buy it.

 

[Jason Hollar]

Just saw Mumford & Sons on Austin City Limits. Anyone know what bassist Ted Dwane is using?

 

[matthewbrown]

An interesting point. I'd think that "sound better" is a very subjective point, however. I believe that the "good sound" that we commonly associate with archtop guitars, at least in the modern perspective, is the sound of it with a magnetic pickup. So it's natural that "that sound" is considered to be the "best sound." It might be a matter of the cart having led the horse, so to speak. As an extreme example, a Stratocaster sounds way better plugged in than it does "acoustically" - the archtop just happens to have an acoustic body.

Whereas, the "ultimate" amplified tone most of us would love to hear from the upright? What it sounds like, acoustically, when we stand a few feet away. Which is why the mic is the holy grail of amplification, if it weren't so darned complicated to make the bass loud without feeding back, or picking up the ride cymbal, or bumping the mic and drastically changing the sound, et al.

I find this discussion fascinating, and this post in particular cuts to the heart of the matter about the difference between "acoustic" and "electric." Most DB players aren't going to use amplification to achieve a sound that's all that distinct from what the instrument sounds like (optimally) when played unamplified (pace, Eberhard Weber). But a guitarist like Jim Hall is coming from a very different place, and judicious use of signal processing fit right in for him. I've given up playing electric upright, and only played acoustic DB for a short while, and now play an archtop fretless electric bass. When I'm looking for a "good sound" I really have a blend in mind of an acoustic DB and fretless electric. But since my bass doesn't really HAVE an acoustic sound (any more than an archtop guitar does), I'm basically modeling the sound on something that doesn't exist, except in my head.

I would argue that to some extent that this is true even for acoustic DB players seeking an accurate, amplified representation of their instruments. They're aiming for a sound that exists in their heads -- an IDEAL of what their instrument sounds like unamplified. I makes sense that there's this endless experimentation, since no amplified DB is really going to sound like the same instrument played unamplified in a room with good acoustics. I have a friend who plays jazz on nylon-string classical guitar, and it's the same story for him, because he really can't play unamplified in an ensemble. Ultimately, for him and so many others, it isn't so much about "acoustic" or "electric" as the model you're using for your sound.

 

[Whit Townsend]

After using the krivo a while here are my thoughts.
The biggist advantages vs a piezo/preamp/direct box are
1. Simplicity. One cord straight to amp. A vol control on the pickup would be ultimate.
2. Not as fussy about amp or speakers. Works pretty good with my SWR WM12 combo, or my old Bassman 50w and 1-15 cab, a Peavey combo, whatever it seems to dial in pretty quick w little fuss.
3. At the lower stage vols I used to run my BP100 for the more acoustic and country sounding stuff, the krivo comes pretty darn close to a natural acoustic sound. There def is something to the scattered winding or whatever claim he makes about sounding more natural.
With the right amp and speakers, or PA, the BP100/PADI is better. But the Krivo works well and doesnt seem to be fussy.
4. When the band gets loud and the music turns more RnR/Punk I can crank the amp and play it more like a Pbass and not kill myself. This negates the necc of me bringing along an electric bass rig to the gig.

So its a nice thing and works as advertised but Im not completely sold. I still think my old BP100>PADI straight to the board sound better for the more acoustic material(but the krivo sounds better thru an amp).
So I think the next gig Im going back to the BP100.PADI>board for the upright and bring along an lelctric bass and amp for the material where that is called for. Its more stuff to haul but I think its gonna work better. If Im not going to the house, and depending on the amp for out front and monitor, then the Krivo it is.

 

[dolfinman]

I've spent soooo much time trying to get a good sound at loud volumes---I believe that I do. Even at loud fusion levels I've been told that it really sounds like my bass. I've found out--at least in my experience that the speaker was the biggest problem. Bass and setup next---and then the pickup.

I agree with this. The audience will hear a combination of these things, but (with amplified music) the speaker is the final interface. Quiet (acoustic) is the answer for double bass. But if you are reinforcing with a pickup the speaker has to be up to the task.

 

[BassFalcon]

I use a Pierre Joseph String Charger, it’s a similar design to the Kriva. For some reason on my very old Kay with a cracked ply every piezo I’ve ever tried sounded terrible. The string charger sounds pretty good on it.

 

[Ric Vice]

Things are little different in my case. In the 1970’s when piezo pickups were all terrible, I did use a Paul Tonnengies magnetic pickup, because they solved the volume issues I had with my smaller 5/8th’s bass. Once we got the Underwood, things changed, because I also saved my pennies for nearly a year and a half and purchased
my first Walter Woods MI 100 8. Walter matched the input impedance of his amp to the Underwood pickup. It was a game changer. But unless you had that combination, you wouldn’t have noticed much difference, between a magnetic pickup and the Underwood into most of the SS amplifiers that we’re available. Now there are a wide range of amps out there with a 1 Megohm input impedance and a wide variety of decent piezo pickups so things are definitely better. That said if the EQ ranges and emphasis controls are still set to favor EB then your piezo will still sound less than optimal, regardless of what the input impedance is. I’ve only found a handful of amps or preamps that have that magic combination, although I’m sure there are others. While magnetic pickups do offer a solution to the volume issue, they do not reproduce a sound comparable to the acoustic qualities of a Double Bass. I’d rather play my Lakland 55-94 Lined Fretless, because it sounds just as much like a DB, as my DB with a magnetic pickup does. Just my take of course.

 

[Jefenator]

I love the Biesele system but 100% magnetic sounds like a fretless P-bass; that defeats the sonic purpose of playing DB as far as I'm concerned. (Good emergency backup for when a piezo pickup starts dying its inevitable natural death.)
For me, the mag/piezo blend is really where it's at. Just a tad of magnetic fills out the sound nicely with plenty of acoustic nuance left. 50/50 helps me run with the pack @ rock volume levels but still retain my DB sonic identity.
Alas, I don't get to use that cool, punchy magnetic blend for rock because I can only endure playing entire sets of that style with gut strings.