Making a "Cheap" live setup sound good???

[LightGroove]

Hey now,

I've recently become friends with a local touring band. They've been saving some $$$ and invested in a modest Peavey Setup. The setup seems adequate for what they play but sounds very modest live. They are using all onboard processors/effects to a power amp to monitors or a pair of double 15 cabs. They basically sound like an amateur band sound wise.

So my question...is there an investment that can be made to make those on a cheaper budget sound better. I realize making a Kia into a Mercedes isn't realistic . I also realize that practice plays a part and a decent sound guy. Ive scoured various sites an see vocal/sound processors, compressors etc. but unsure if any would be a wise investment.

Thanks

 

[modulusman]

Subs. The local band were stupid to buy double 15 cabs unless they spent major money. Too many bands buy with their eyes instead of their ears. They think that 215 cabs will sound better because they are bigger and they are usually wrong. Subs might still help.

 

[LightGroove]

The last show I attended everything sounded either really muddy or really thin...just really unfull.

I recommended some 3 way cabs for versatility as they have vocals, electric, acoustic and some drum micing all running through the same cabs

So are these speaker processors,vocal processors just a waste of $$$ ?

 

[southernrocker]

A BBE sonic maximizer will do wonders to that setup.

 

[Lync]

The problem with modeling pedals/processors going direct is that different patches have different output.

I run into this problem doing sound for my band. The guitarist is all over with these presets. You can get the setting correct and then it changes again. Being that I am playing bass, it makes it tough to make changes on the fly. BTW, I have found this to be the same with my Zoom B2 pedal.

I would say that they should simplify as much as possible using a single preset for tone (and then maybe a lead boost) and really get out in front to listen to their system). Practice with the mains about 20' in front of them pointed back at them so they can get a good idea of what the audience is hearing. Also, keep the volume as low as possible to be heard in a live performance setting. That way they can save what power they have for a cleaner tone and the audience will appreciate live music that does not damage their ears.

 

[Stumbo]

Just curious, do you know who put together their setup?

In theory it may have been a cheaper/practical idea. In practice...well, you know what they got.

Sounds like they need to get at least a mixer/two 2-way PA Cabs(w/15's) to go along with their power amp/monitors. Get the bass and guitars their own amps and run each through one of the 2x15 cabs. Maybe that would do it.

 

[LightGroove]

Hey Stumbo,

Thats exactly the setup they have and what they are doing. The bass/electric are running through their own setups and the keys, vocals, drums, acoustic all through the main pa.It just sounds very amateur.

I guess my question was kind of vague. Is there anything external that can be purchased in addition to the basic onboard fx, processors etc that would sweeten or improve the basic sound and make it sound more professional?

Maybe a good sound engineer will be all they need, right now its make shift.

 

[claytitan]

Well without hearing what they sound like all I can do is make a guess based on what I see amatuer bands do in small clubs all the time. This is a simple answer but it is very difficult to do.

Guitars are too loud - turn them down.
Drums are too loud - play quieter.
Ahhhh now the vocals and bass can be heard! 70% improvement.

Now make sure the guitars and bass are not scooping out all the mids. Get the guitars eq flatter or even drop off the lows and have the bass bump the low mids. Get the guitarist to drop their distortion, reverb, chorus, flange, delays and everything else they dump on to make up for their sloppy playing by 25%. Most amateur guitarist try to get a sound that sounds good solo in the bedroom. Live it sounds like mud. Also have the guitarist limit the number of tones they play with during a set. The sound can be mixed decent then a guitarist kicks a pedal which changes the eq of the entire mix by either throwing out a ton of harmonics or worse yet their actual guitar level changes.

If the sound is still bad even when working on the mix and you can afford it then it is time to add subs. I would add that if a band can't get a decent sound out of a cheap system they probably won't sound good through an expensive one either. Anyway with the subs it is time to mike the kick, toms and the snare and pull the bass into the PA by mic and/or direct. Cymbals should carry fine as these are usually way too loud anyway. Now it is time to get those amps on stage turned into stage monitors. Guitar amps should be turned back to the guitarist. Mic them and use the PA to do the job for the audience. The drummer can scale back on volume even more since he is mic'd (good luck with that one). Bass amp should just be loud enough to hear on stage as you don't need to fill the room.

Good luck with this one. This is all simple stuff but I bet you won't get anyone to do it.

 

[EastCoastThump]

They basically sound like an amateur band sound wise.

How so? Is the playing tight? Are the basic instrument and vocal tones solid? Do the individual tones work together?

If you aren't sure what to do or what additional gear you need, I absolutely would recommend against blindly buying processors. Let's assume that their playing and arrangements are already solid. If you want to make a competent band sound better, suggest that they hire an experienced and capable sound engineer to consult on their gear, tones, set-up, monitoring, and mix.

 

[LightGroove]

I think claytitan summed up 99% of their issues. I hung out with them tonight and assisted with sound. Their bass player actually showed up but had no cab so he ran through the system and muddied things up a bit ..

Anyways first observation was the guitarist was waaaaaaaaaaay to loud..piercing my ears and killing everything. I made the suggestion for him to turn things down and the lead singer agreed. I was met with a bright red face and refusal to turn anything down. He then turned waaay down to the point of not being able to hear it. He gradually worked his volume back up to killing everything toward the end. Later learned this is a reoccuring issue with him. Got the acoustic sounding pretty sweet but the vocals were still a bit muddied up..Im guessing the mic quality is killing things..almost sounded wooley. Anyways I'll start simple and stay away from investments until levels get solved.

Thanks for the info. thus far.

 

[Stumbo]

Their bass player actually showed up but had no cab so he ran through the system and muddied things up a bit...

...the vocals were still a bit muddied up..Im guessing the mic quality is killing things..almost sounded wooley.

How can the bass player show up to a gig or rehearsal w/o a cabinet and expect to just plug in their small PA?

With the bass going through a small PA, everything will probably sound muddy. I suggest testing just the vocals to find out if they sound okay before changing mics.

Anyways first observation was the guitarist was waaaaaaaaaaay to loud..piercing my ears and killing everything.

I made the suggestion for him to turn things down and the lead singer agreed.

I was met with a bright red face and refusal to turn anything down.

He then turned waaay down to the point of not being able to hear it.

He gradually worked his volume back up to killing everything toward the end.

Later learned this is a reoccuring issue with him.

Both amateur and immature.

Anyways I'll start simple and stay away from investments until levels get solved.

Good idea. If they can't take some constructive suggestions, there is no point in wasting your time.

Maybe record their gigs or rehearsal and let them listen to how they really sound. If it sounds okay to them, move on. Or if they agree that it doesn't sound good but won't make permanent changes to their settings, changing their equipment won't help and you'll be wasting more of your time.

Sounds like some big egos in a small band.

Good luck.

 

[LightGroove]

Hey Stumbo....You are def. nailing things on the head. There are egos present but primarily with the 2 sloppiest players

...Not sure about their bass player or his commitment .Its funny as his dad owns a music store and he works there but doesnt have a practice cab???? He is one of those "oh i have a million connections and can get a million gig type of guys and well doesnt show up for half the practices and noodles endlessly through songs (a guitar convert) The gigs they have only a few . His comments during practice yesterday were...oh I dont know that tune but I'll wing it this weekend

My point in starting the thread is in hopes of helping them and hopefully eventually help them land gigs. When I saw them live I was like...uuhhh no way they get invited back. The bass player was playing with his stuff (eq') answering his phone THROUGH THE SHOW!.

After writing this I'm starting to realize I'm answering my own questions. Thanks for the perspective.

I did mention taking the PA outdoors for a day and eqing/balancing things and getting vocals dialed in.

 

[JimmyM]

Sorry, but that band has zero hope if the bass player takes phone calls during a gig and the guitarist is such an a-hole.

 

[Stumbo]

...oh I dont know that tune but I'll wing it this weekend

The bass player was playing with his stuff (eq') answering his phone THROUGH THE SHOW!.

IMO, I wouldn't waste my time. You're working harder than thay are. Not a good situation.

If you really want to be involved with a band, I suggest you find a band where the members are serious about what they do and that wants/needs your help and will act on your suggestions, otherwise, I'd just stay home and practice my own stuff.

 

[walterw]

IMO, I wouldn't waste my time. You're working harder than thay are. Not a good situation.

If you really want to be involved with a band, I suggest you find a band where the members are serious about what they do and that wants/needs your help and will act on your suggestions, otherwise, I'd just stay home and practice my own stuff.

+1

you are judged by your associations. if you hang out with losers, people will think you're a loser, too.

 

[T-Bird]

Hi.

Everyone has pretty much nailed the main problems already, but here's my take.

First problem everyone makes when buying the first PA is thinking too big.
Yeah, let's run all the instruments through it. Just like the pro's do.

Then the realization hits after seeking/asking for PROFESSIONAL help.
That'll set us back about $2K for a small to medium sized INDOORS venue.

Then it's all about the budget. A desicion is made to buy something that will amplify only the vocals, and perhaps the keys, and ... You'll get the picture. "Bigger is better" is still the guideline so maximum amount of watts/$ and maximum amount&size of speakers/$ is chosen. On-line as so one is cheap enough to buy used gear, that's for the poor, but we're not stupid enough to make the local music shop owner rich either. So on-line it is.

A modest sum of money is collected but not everyone can pay even that so a deal of some sort is made to compensate the people who can pay double.

An order is made and the package arrives.

Hmmm, it's smaller than in the pic, is usually the first reaction. When plugged in without any previous experience, it sounds horrible too.

Then, after a while, someone may get the idea to try it with a mp3 player. It may sound decent, but nothing to get exited about, and lacking bass, lacking definition and generally just not comparable with even a home stereo system. Any attempts to get the vocals audible over the loud drums, guitars etc. fail.

Then it's off to the wonderful world of internet to seek for advice.

Ask and You shall recieve.
Some people are speaking from years of experience in budget sound and getting most of it. Some are speaking from years of experience in professional sound systems. The vast majority is parroting whatever happens to be the trend and general misconseption in their particular location.



IME/IMHO the best thing for You LightGroove to do, is to bail out while you can.
The band sounds like it's going nowhere and wasting time with trying to coax a decent sound out of them, sounds impossible even with a good sound system (hell, it sounds like You can't get a decent balance out of them without ANY system). You'll see no reward or satisfaction in trying to do anything with an entry level PA system.

I tip my hat to You for trying though, sadly it sounds that the band doesn't appreciate your efforts that much.

If You still insist in trying, here's what I'd do.

Find a soundperson. Buy a six-pack or a two, or a fifth, whatever You think he/she appreciates more, and politely ask for help. He/she can quickly point out the weak spots, where there's a need for additional equipment etc. He may also be kind enough to tell You to get as far as you can from that group, if he sees the warnigh signs he's seen many times before.

Hope You'll come out of this adventure as a winner and an experience or a two richer.

Regards
Sam

 

[LightGroove]

Thanks a ton for more insight.

Please don't take my posts as a bash to anyone in the band...I'm not coming from there. Just more constructive criticism.

It is a Praise and Worship act so excessive alcohol is out of the equation although a beer sounds really nice.

I'm not to the point of frustration and do feel led to help these guys. I'm by no means a pro but have been playing P&W consistantly for 4-5yrs now. Starting to become familiar with what works and what doesn't. I actually sat in with them a few times as their bass player didnt show up. Found out he was last minute at their last show as well ( I had other commitments)

Their budget is heavily invested in recording right now...which I think it a bit early. The recording does sound ok but its with their old bass player (more on his game)

Anyways I picked up a new vocal mic to try and ordered another to use with them and at church just to play with. In researching it does seem that decent mics play an important role.

I ordered a Sennheiser E845 if anyone is familiar...

 

[SteveC]

Sorry, but that band has zero hope if the bass player takes phone calls during a gig and the guitarist is such an a-hole.

Yeah, P&W or R&R, that band is not in a good place. Maybe you can find another band with more potential to spend your time on.

 

[bassman1185]

Getting a 31-band EQ and an RTA/Spectrum analyzer will do wonders for most setups that don't have that. There are a few that can be rigged together to automatically EQ the room. That will go a long way towards cleaning up a mix. Also, assign specific channels to specific voices or instruments. That way you don't have to re-EQ each channel for every gig.

 

[walterw]

Getting a 31-band EQ

of course.

and an RTA/Spectrum analyzer will do wonders for most setups that don't have that. There are a few that can be rigged together to automatically EQ the room.

OH MY GOD NO

that's the worst thing you can do. RTAs don't account for phase, time or room resonance issues, and will leave you with a hideous EQ curve every time. they're neat for showing feedback frequencies, but you cannot use them to "tune" a room.

(unless you're talking about serious pro stuff like SMAART, by which point you'd have to be a master sound engineer anyway.)