Making fast runs more expressive

[Whousedtoplay]

Let's listen to two tracks of the same. One is the studio track, the other is a live performance of the same.
In the studio version, the bass/double bass player, JERÔME REGARD does not add any embellishments, any "runs," any fill-ins. And it sound OK!

Keep Connexion · Manu Katché




Try to play along with the Metronome/Drums/Bass mix and figure out a/any "runs" that don't sound "random."

And here we have a recent live version of the recording. The bass player adds some "embellishments."



Here is the Metronome/Drums/Bass mix of their live performance.

Listen to the added "runs," fill-ins, etc. in the bass line.

 

[nonohmic]

What are some patterns and techniques I can use to practice getting into faster runs without losing musicality?
I can't help but feel like a lot of guitarists and bassists can sound a bit random or dry when they play fast stuff.
I love the kind of stuff Jaco did, but even him in a live setting could sound too random and struggling.

I thought and struggled with this for a while. When it did click it was first on passages that I'd written, which were most likely runs that physically felt 'right' to me. I then was able to extend that feeling and fluidity to passages from others that I'd learned. But there are still runs that I just can't make feel fluid no matter how hard I try.

So the answer is go slow, learn them properly then speed up. Practice basically. But also being cognizant that some are going to feel way harder than others to make sound 'flowy' - even if they're not technically as difficult. Every player is different.

 

[bramvdhoeven]

Let's listen to two tracks of the same. One is the studio track, the other is a live performance of the same.
In the studio version, the bass/double bass player, JERÔME REGARD does not add any embellishments, any "runs," any fill-ins. And it sound OK!

Keep Connexion · Manu Katché




Try to play along with the Metronome/Drums/Bass mix and figure out a/any "runs" that don't sound "random."

View attachment 7086894


And here we have a recent live version of the recording. The bass player adds some "embellishments."



Here is the Metronome/Drums/Bass mix of their live performance.

Listen to the added "runs," fill-ins, etc. in the bass line.

View attachment 7086896

Hey appreciate your effort, I'll take some time responding to the things you posted.

 

[SoonerBill]

Listen to the Bach Suites for Unaccompanied Cello. Plenty of examples there.

Funny. I just happened across this thread and when I opened it this is what popped up. That is a great suggestion. I played viola from 5th grade to a sophomore in college. In high school there was a cellist in the orchestra lthat was way, way, way better than anyone else in the orchestra. He would go in before anyone else and warm up to those Bach pieces. It was amazing to hear him finger so quickly but precisely playing each note with "feeling". He went on to a professional career playing cello.

 

[dougjwray]

Long, long ago, there was a George Benson interview in Guitar Player magazine. He said something like, "To play fast, you need to know where you're going."
I think it goes without saying that for someone in his league, it's a given that his content will be melodic, with phrasing, dynamics, variety, etc.
So what I glean from his statement is that the brain speed needs to be faster than the finger speed. Also, that you need to know the fingerboard.
As others said, practice slowly and work your way up. And hear everything before you play it.
One more thing: It's a *good* thing to pause while you are forming the next idea. Wind instrument players need to breathe, and this helps their solos to sound musical and human, like someone speaking. And the pauses allow a listener to absorb what you're doing.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

What are some patterns and techniques I can use to practice getting into faster runs without losing musicality?

I've found a youtube video (probably, as a marketing tool) to hire bass players to play "shout" gospel music.
That video owner/bass player has recorded a short track of some "shout music" and asked a few bass players from Fiverr to play it/imitate it/replicate it.
The recorded track starts around 1:09. There are three bass players in that video trying to repeat that track.
Could you play it?
At 100% tempo, at 70% tempo, at 50% tempo?
Here is just the track.

And here is that video.

 

[Ritter667]

Slow bass lines will in their nature have more room for expression and nuances.

There is simply more time for note length variations, and for techniques such a vibrato, that adds to the expressiveness.

That doesn't however mean that there is no place for fast runs, or that one can't improve/optimize the expressiveness of fast runs.

However I am not sure about how to practice that most effectively other than actually doing it while focusing on expression, not sure practicing bass lines slowly, as suggested by someone, and then speeding them up is the solution, because expression is going to be lost in translation as soon as you speed lines up, for reasons I mentioned in the second sentence of this post, but also the other way around actually because the speed a certain bass line is played at actually is part of what makes up the musical expression of that particular line, most bass lines simply sounds best played within a certain tempo margin (which margin of course differs depending on the specific bass line question), you can't just take any slow bass line and speed it up, or the other way around any fast bass lines and slow it down, and expect it to sound equally great, not unless you change and adapt them, at which point the point of practicing slow and then speeding up is kind of lost.

 

[Lo-E]

I believe it was Charlie Parker who said: “If you want to play fast, practice slow. If you want to play real fast, practice real slow.”

It sounds rather flip but it really does get to the heart of it. Learn to play slowly with intent and expression and gradually speed it up, retaining those attributes.

Above @dougjwray mentions horn players’ need to phrase around their breathing. I think Lester Young is a wonderful example of a musician who played with tasteful phrasing, full expression and subtle dynamics even when he was playing fast. In his fast runs he would often skip over notes that you would swear were played until you listen back to the recording slowed down! In the same way that some bassists use ghost notes, he would imply notes without playing them. He would also play runs with every other note accented - a technique that swung like crazy. He’s worth listening to for phrasing ideas.

And the suggest To check out the Bach cello suites is spot-on, too.

 

[bramvdhoeven]

Long, long ago, there was a George Benson interview in Guitar Player magazine. He said something like, "To play fast, you need to know where you're going."
I think it goes without saying that for someone in his league, it's a given that his content will be melodic, with phrasing, dynamics, variety, etc.
So what I glean from his statement is that the brain speed needs to be faster than the finger speed. Also, that you need to know the fingerboard.
As others said, practice slowly and work your way up. And hear everything before you play it.
One more thing: It's a *good* thing to pause while you are forming the next idea. Wind instrument players need to breathe, and this helps their solos to sound musical and human, like someone speaking. And the pauses allow a listener to absorb what you're doing.

Very good advice. Makes so much sense, I'm already applying this. Thank you!

 

[bramvdhoeven]

Let's listen to two tracks of the same. One is the studio track, the other is a live performance of the same.
In the studio version, the bass/double bass player, JERÔME REGARD does not add any embellishments, any "runs," any fill-ins. And it sound OK!

Keep Connexion · Manu Katché




Try to play along with the Metronome/Drums/Bass mix and figure out a/any "runs" that don't sound "random."

View attachment 7086894


And here we have a recent live version of the recording. The bass player adds some "embellishments."



Here is the Metronome/Drums/Bass mix of their live performance.

Listen to the added "runs," fill-ins, etc. in the bass line.

View attachment 7086896

Wow this is good!
Great track to jam on. The tempo/groove is ideal for experimenting.
track sounds absolutely fine without bass embellishment as well.

 

[Whousedtoplay]

Learn to play slowly with intent and expression and gradually speed it up, retaining those attributes.

Sometimes, when I practice a bass line at a slower tempo, playing the same at the real tempo does not sound "correct."

I like the bass-line from the following track - it's simple, melodic, dynamic, moody, flowing, etc...




But that bass-line sounds "better" (for my ears) when played at 70% of the original tempo.

 

[JonathanPDX]

A lot of less experienced bassists and guitarists struggle with phrasing because they are thinking about the mechanics of the instrument and their hands, and building all their musical ideas around that. "I can reach this note and that note, and pluck one with each finger, so that must be a musical phrase because I can physically do it on my instrument." You can hear when people are playing shapes and patterns instead of musical phrases.

So, the first step is to get away from the bass. The goal in most musical phrasing is to sound like the human voice, to make the instrument "sing." That's also why a lot of bass runs suck, because they don't breath like a human would in natural communication with their voice! Learn vocal parts, horn parts, and practice singing your runs and phrases. If you have to take a breath then that's where the phrase should naturally rest.

The great musicians are learning from other instruments and bringing those ideas to the bass. Victor Wooten doesn't just thump random patterns, he studied Billy Cobham drum solos and learned to play those phrases on his instrument.

Personally, I think most bass ideas are boring, and the best stuff I hear comes from other places. So when I want to work on phrasing I go outside the bass. You want to learn how to play a cool idea that crosses the bar line? Go learn a Snoop rap from the 90's and practice that phrasing on your bass. You want to play something that is fast that doesn't sound like a typical bass player fill? Go pick a pop singer like Christina Aguilera or Ariana Grande and learn some of their runs on your bass.

When I feel stagnant with my ideas I change my background music. Go find a new band or a totally different genre and listen to it on your way to work every day; you'll find some of those musical ideas will start to come out when you pick up the bass.

 

[Ritter667]

A lot of less experienced bassists and guitarists struggle with phrasing because they are thinking about the mechanics of the instrument and their hands, and building all their musical ideas around that. "I can reach this note and that note, and pluck one with each finger, so that must be a musical phrase because I can physically do it on my instrument." You can hear when people are playing shapes and patterns instead of musical phrases.

So, the first step is to get away from the bass. The goal in most musical phrasing is to sound like the human voice, to make the instrument "sing." That's also why a lot of bass runs suck, because they don't breath like a human would in natural communication with their voice! Learn vocal parts, horn parts, and practice singing your runs and phrases. If you have to take a breath then that's where the phrase should naturally rest.

The great musicians are learning from other instruments and bringing those ideas to the bass. Victor Wooten doesn't just thump random patterns, he studied Billy Cobham drum solos and learned to play those phrases on his instrument.

Personally, I think most bass ideas are boring, and the best stuff I hear comes from other places. So when I want to work on phrasing I go outside the bass. You want to learn how to play a cool idea that crosses the bar line? Go learn a Snoop rap from the 90's and practice that phrasing on your bass. You want to play something that is fast that doesn't sound like a typical bass player fill? Go pick a pop singer like Christina Aguilera or Ariana Grande and learn some of their runs on your bass.

When I feel stagnant with my ideas I change my background music. Go find a new band or a totally different genre and listen to it on your way to work every day; you'll find some of those musical ideas will start to come out when you pick up the bass.

Best piece of advice yet in this thread!

 

[pepj]

Not sure you can just dial them up in a one size fits all. Its a journey which encompasses your style..otherwise it does just indded sound random and will likely not work.
The musical components of this are basically mini solo's/fills but have to fit the rest of your playing.
First off, you need to research players you like and use their licks as building blocks.
Depends who you pick and your deep seated influences are. imv

 

[Whousedtoplay]

A lot of less experienced bassists and guitarists struggle with phrasing because they are thinking about the mechanics of the instrument and their hands, and building all their musical ideas around that. "I can reach this note and that note, and pluck one with each finger, so that must be a musical phrase because I can physically do it on my instrument." You can hear when people are playing shapes and patterns instead of musical phrases.

So, the first step is to get away from the bass. The goal in most musical phrasing is to sound like the human voice, to make the instrument "sing." That's also why a lot of bass runs suck, because they don't breath like a human would in natural communication with their voice! Learn vocal parts, horn parts, and practice singing your runs and phrases. If you have to take a breath then that's where the phrase should naturally rest.

The great musicians are learning from other instruments and bringing those ideas to the bass. Victor Wooten doesn't just thump random patterns, he studied Billy Cobham drum solos and learned to play those phrases on his instrument.

Personally, I think most bass ideas are boring, and the best stuff I hear comes from other places. So when I want to work on phrasing I go outside the bass. You want to learn how to play a cool idea that crosses the bar line? Go learn a Snoop rap from the 90's and practice that phrasing on your bass. You want to play something that is fast that doesn't sound like a typical bass player fill? Go pick a pop singer like Christina Aguilera or Ariana Grande and learn some of their runs on your bass.

When I feel stagnant with my ideas I change my background music. Go find a new band or a totally different genre and listen to it on your way to work every day; you'll find some of those musical ideas will start to come out when you pick up the bass.

You have good pedagogical skills!

 

[Whousedtoplay]

The musical components of this are basically mini solo's/fills but have to fit the rest of your playing.

Yes, a (pro) bass player adds a (lot) of MINI solos (soli,) fills, including slides/glissandi, vibrato, bent notes, etc...

I was just listening to an "energetically-vibrant" bass line full of those mini embellishments.

Angel Dust - feat. Brian Jackson & Wolfgang Valbrun

Bass: Xavier Zolli



Here is that extracted bass-line with the drums and metronome.
It provides a good learning experience for those who are eager to learn.

About the bass player.

Xavier Zolli on SoundBetter

Credits : Aloe Blacc (USA), Axel Bauer (France), Gilberto Gil (Brazil), Garou (Canada), Margaret Menezes (Brazil), Grand Corps Malade (France), Mayra Andrade (Capo Verde), Patricia Kaas (France), Gipsy Kings (France), Ahmed Soultan (Marocco), Ray Lema, (Congo)... I'm committed to bringing my...

soundbetter.com

"Professional bass player for 20 years touring / studio / TV I've been playing many styles over the time: rock, pop, funk, soul, brazilian music, african music, stoner, jazz... I always strive to match my playing and sound to the musicality of the song! Latin Grammy Nominated with the song "Elegibo" from Margareth Menezes' album "Autêntica"

Credits : Aloe Blacc (USA), Axel Bauer (France), Gilberto Gil (Brazil), Garou (Canada), Margaret Menezes (Brazil), Grand Corps Malade (France), Mayra Andrade (Capo Verde), Patricia Kaas (France), Gipsy Kings (France), Ahmed Soultan (Marocco), Ray Lema, (Congo)..."
P.S. As a side note. On that web-site, one could see the prices for creating/writing bass lines.
Zolli's price is about $125.00/song.


Sean Hurley's average price is about $300.00/song.

Sean Hurley on SoundBetter

I am an LA based session bass player. I've played on records by John Mayer, Lizzy McAlpine, Gwen Stefani, Jason Mraz, Lukas Graham, Colbie Caillat, Lady A, Lana Del Rey, Alanis Morissette, Ringo Starr, Robin Thicke, Idina Menzel, Vertical Horizon, Michael Buble', and many others. I have also...

soundbetter.com

 

[Whousedtoplay]

I've found a youtube video (probably, as a marketing tool) to hire bass players to play "shout" gospel music.
That video owner/bass player has recorded a short track of some "shout music" and asked a few bass players from Fiverr to play it/imitate it/replicate it.
The recorded track starts around 1:09. There are three bass players in that video trying to repeat that track.
Could you play it?
At 100% tempo, at 70% tempo, at 50% tempo?
Here is just the track.

View attachment 7089994

And here is that video.

This morning, I had some time to notate this bass line (adjusted for the 4-string bass) from LeeNunn's transcription.
https://www.talkbass.com/threads/travis-dykes-gospel-bass.1663960/


The original Shout Bass part was performed on the 5-string bass; therefore, I had to slightly change some note pitches.
I've attached a PDF file without any explanation, plus, three batches of the same transcription but with my notes.

(I like that bass line for numerous SLIDINGS! It really helps my aging technique.)

I've included the left (fretting) hand fingering for each note as numbers close to the notes.
That's how my left (fretting) hand fingers ergonomically/naturally tend to play it (but of course with some adjustment.)

As an aging amateur bass player, I'm open to any kind of critique from my TB member!

At this moment, I can properly articulate that bass line by playing at the 80% original track's tempo, but I practice it at 30% track's tempo in order to carefully "pronounce" my side notes of the bass part.
Also, I've wanted to include OPEN STRINGS.


In Measures 1, 3, and 5, I've tried to notate two Bend/Releases of 1 quarter note but could not figure out how to do it on Guitar Pro.
Also, I've used grace notes to indicate the last pitch/note after sliding, like in Measure 1 or M 6.
It's only to correctly indicate (according to my ears) the note after sliding on GP8.

In Measure 8, I use a shift in order to have my Finger 4 - Pinkie - for a slide to A.
A shift in M 9 is for me to be able to play A on the E sting.
N.B. Yes, it's very possible to play that A as an open string.
In Measure 12, I play G and F notes one octave higher, due to the 4-string bass.
Yes, there are other note/fingering/open string possibilities in that measure.

In Measure 13, I use my pinkie (Finger 4) to slide from C to A, play (with pinkie) D on the A string, then, I shift my position and play Eb with Finger 1.

N.B. Measure 17 (TROUBLE!)- Shocking.
In order to notate "perfectly"- on Beat 1 - the chord changes that follows Measure 17, I've "incorporated 3/4 time signature in Measure 13.
Please, be my guest and criticize me for that.
In Measure 18, I'm back to the "normal" 4/4 time signature.
Also, in Measure 18, I use my pinkie to slide and to play Ab - my hand feels comfortable about it.

In Measure 20, I slide with Finger 1 from Eb to F# because of the following notes.
In Measure 28, I slide with Finger 4 (Pinkie.)
In Measure 30, I use a shift.

N.B. Measure 32 - Another "amateur bombshell" - I've decided to return one quarter note; therefore, I have a 5/4 time signature just for that one measure.

 

[Ritter667]

Just get a wah pedal and call it a day!

That is what guitarists do.

 

[pepj]

Not entirely sure what you mean by expressive but what I mean by expression is very very hard to do at speed in a run.. simply because you do not have much time at all.

To get ideas, you might want to listen to Gospel bass players where the best combine melody in their runs with bends and trills. Even a simple pentatonic scale can be dressed up very effectively.

Its a very advanced technique which bypasses plenty of bass players.

 

[Bob_Ross]

Just as a statement of objective and irrefutable fact, runs are more expressive when they are slow. Useless to reply contrary because it’s an axiom.

LOL. Sorry, that's simply incorrect. There is absolutely zero correlation between the speed of a musical passage, and any inherent expressiveness contained within it.

...which is not to say that it's easy to make fast runs expressive. But that's a performance challenge, not a content limitation.