Double Bass Managing piezo 'thwack'/noise - how do you do it?

[Clarkybass]

I read a post on TB in which the writer said he manages (reduces) the horrid clacking/thwacking noise you can get from from a piezo pickup by dialing out the 800 Hz frequency. I tried this and it does work well with my Realist, although it does muddy my sound rather more than I would ideally like. So I wondered how others manage the unwanted noise from a piezo pickup?

 

[Chris Fitzgerald]

These days, I manage it by using an amp that doesn't amplify/produce the quack in the first place. I'm not sure if it's the preamp or the cabinet, but when I discovered the Phil Jones Super Flightcase, it was the first time I had ever been able to plug directly into an amp and leave the EQ completely flat and not have any Piezo quack or honk. I just use an fdeck HPF to tame the lows, then adjust the master volume from there.

The other night I went to a regular gig and plugged in and heard some quack in the sound. After thinking "uh-oh, here we go again", I looked down and saw that one of the mid knobs had been turned up in transit. I set it back to flat and the sound went away.

 

[Clarkybass]

Funnily enough, the piezo thwack/quack I was trying to minimise was on a Phil Jones Briefcase, so clearly not all Phil Jones combos are created equal!

 

[Ric Vice]

These days, I manage it by using an amp that doesn't amplify/produce the quack in the first place. I'm not sure if it's the preamp or the cabinet, but when I discovered the Phil Jones Super Flightcase, it was the first time I had ever been able to plug directly into an amp and leave the EQ completely flat and not have any Piezo quack or honk. I just use an fdeck HPF to tame the lows, then adjust the master volume from there.

+1 Even with the Underwood, a Walter Woods Amp doesn't have a noticeable quack, but you're correct, it's a combination of factors, that I couldn't even begin to try and explain. I've owned one of Walter's amps for so long that when I have to use something else, it's a bit of a revelation to remember, that other amps will usually emphasize the quack. Personally, I think it's a midrange issue, and IME, IMHO the Woods pre amp is voiced to de-emphasize those frequency. Of course, if you can use the Ehrlund with your bass, there won't be any quack either since it's not a piezo.

Ric

The other night I went to a regular gig and plugged in and heard some quack in the sound. After thinking "uh-oh, here we go again", I looked down and saw that one of the mid knobs had been turned up in transit. I set it back to flat and the sound went away.

Sounds like the Superflight Case midrange, does exactly the same thing as the Walter Woods, and the whole rig weighs 33 lbs. My Audiokinesis TC 112 weighs 30 lbs. so you got me beat. If I get the acoustic friendly version, my speaker will weigh the same as your whole rig, and probably sound just as good.

Ric

 

[Clarkybass]

I returned the Ehrlund I had as it simply wouldn't work with my old (1880s) German 3/4 flatback, no matter where I placed it, how much putty, how big a gap etc. So I am back on a Full Circle on my flatback and a Realist on my Kolstein Busetto travel bass. In short, Ehrlund is not an option for me! The piezo noise is more pronounced on my Kostein (and it was the same before I got the Realist, having previously had Rev Solo, Planet Wing and BassMax pickups on this bass - the Realist sounds best to my ears)

 

[Eric Hochberg]

FYI, the Erlund isn't the only non piezo PU out there. I've been using a Stat B for many years and do not have the mids problem I think you guys are talking about. Although I used an Underwood forever, and didn't struggle too much with that either. I think of the Stat B as a more refined Underwood, if that makes sense.

For those pickup experimenters here, I wouldn't hesitate to try one. BTW, it works great on both of my basses and transfers in about a minute.

 

[drurb]

The piezo "quack" does, indeed, arise largely from an emphasis of the midrange frequencies. The first step toward minimizing it is to provide a near-optimum load impedance in the range of 1-10 Mohm. This is provided by pre-amps such as the fdeck unit.

Most quality amps are not voiced. The variance reported among amps when using piezos really stems, I believe, from the cabs with which they are mated and/or from an interaction between their inputs and the device preceding them. Cabs are often voiced intentionally and even when they aren't, few really have a near-flat response.

Good tone-shaping circuits can also go a long way toward making a pizeo sound good. As I've posted many times here, I'm a fan of parametric circuits such as the one found on my EA iamp200.

Even with the best tone-shaping, I always found the piezo sound to be short of what I really wanted. As I originally posted here, I believe the temporal attack/decay profile is extremely important in terms of the perceived sound.

All of this was solved for me by the Ehrlund which I realize was just not an option for the OP. As Eric points out, there are other non-piezo options out there.

 

[Clarkybass]

This is all really helpful. I only started gigging double bass a couple of years ago and am still learning my way. I had started from the principle that you need to keep the mids up to be heard against a band but this is clearly the root cause of my piezo issue

 

[Ric Vice]

FYI, the Erlund isn't the only non piezo PU out there. I've been using a Stat B for many years and do not have the mids problem I think you guys are talking about. Although I used an Underwood forever, and didn't struggle too much with that either. I think of the Stat B as a more refined Underwood, if that makes sense.

+1 If I had a little extra cash, I'd most likely invest in the new Stat B Vintage as has two elements, like the original Schertler did. They do sound very natural to my ear, as I have a friend that owns Hubert Leigos' version of the original. Of the piezo's on the market, I got a better sound from the Realist, especially with a bow, than I did with the Underwood.
As I'm very pleased with the Ehrlund I don't really need to investigate new pickups at the moment. My guess is that the Stat B in either version, would work better across a large number of basses, than the Ehrlund does, but that's only an assumption on my part. Apparently it would also work better than a DYN-B, that is also very instrument dependant, and doesn't work throughout a large number of individual basses.

For those pickup experimenters here, I wouldn't hesitate to try one. BTW, it works great on both of my basses and transfers in about a minute.

Someday, I intend too, thanks Eric

 

[Eric Hochberg]

+1 If I had a little extra cash, I'd most likely invest in the new Stat B Vintage as has two elements, like the original Schertler did. They do sound very natural to my ear, as I have a friend that owns Hubert Leigos' version of the original. Of the piezo's on the market, I got a better sound from the Realist, especially with a bow, than I did with the Underwood.
As I'm very pleased with the Ehrlund I don't really need to investigate new pickups at the moment. My guess is that the Stat B in either version, would work better across a large number of basses, than the Ehrlund does, but that's only an assumption on my part. Apparently it would also work better than a DYN-B, that is also very instrument dependant, and doesn't work throughout a large number of individual basses.

I loved the original two element version that I borrowed, which led me to the Stat B. I have since bought a second Stat to pair with it, but have found that one works better for me, at least so far. Two together through one preamp have a phase, more electronic sounding, effect. Schertler suggested I reverse the direction of one element which I tried, but that didn't seem to correct it. Maybe running each element through it's own preamp and amp channel would work better.

The Realist has a wonderful bowed sound, more natural than the Stat. I can only guess that is because of the body position of the pickup. The Stat is much better than the underwood, though when bowing. I've never tried it, but I think a Realist/Stat B combo could be good for pizz/arco switching.

 

[christw]

I've got rather limited experience but on my Carvin MB10 I get a very accurate tone by cutting my upper paramid heavily at 1.2 kHz to squash the piezo bite & string noise of my Six Rounds Double Barrel.

 

[drurb]

I've got rather limited experience but on my Carvin MB10 I get a very accurate tone by cutting my upper paramid heavily at 1.2 kHz to squash the piezo bite & string noise of my Six Rounds Double Barrel.

Makes sense! A peak in the energy of the octave around 1 kHz is what gives rise to the "nasal" quality of sounds.

 

[PB+J]

I really dislike the sound of piezos, which is why I've been using a DYN-B for years, despite its manifest shortcomings.

The best sound I ever got with piezos was using an Avalon U5 preamp/di. I could still hear the piezo-ish quality, but it was way way way less objectionable. It's hard to explain, but it was really pronounced. I could stil hear the piezo thing, but it was almost pleasant instead of being nails on a blackboard irritating

So I'm agreeing with the idea that the right amp/preamp combination can make piezo-ness much less annoying. In my case, I got tired of lugging the U5 to gigs and switched over to the DYN-B. I just ordered an Ehrlund, to see if it's an improvement over the DYN-B

Piezos have a vast array of advantages over anything else, but that quack....

 

[Ryanpet42]

I really dislike the sound of piezos, which is why I've been using a DYN-B for years, despite its manifest shortcomings.

The best sound I ever got with piezos was using an Avalon U5 preamp/di. I could still hear the piezo-ish quality, but it was way way way less objectionable. It's hard to explain, but it was really pronounced. I could stil hear the piezo thing, but it was almost pleasant instead of being nails on a blackboard irritating

So I'm agreeing with the idea that the right amp/preamp combination can make piezo-ness much less annoying. In my case, I got tired of lugging the U5 to gigs and switched over to the DYN-B. I just ordered an Ehrlund, to see if it's an improvement over the DYN-B

Piezos have a vast array of advantages over anything else, but that quack....

What is this "quack" thou speaks of?