Manging the sound guy

[Steamtronic]

So I play in a three piece hard rock outfit playing originals where the bass shares a lot of hooks and main riffs with the guitar (think Motorhead, Blue Cheer, The Jam). Obviously this means I want the bass to be a lot more front and center in the sound as opposed to sitting under the guitar.

As we're starting out, we're going to be playing a lot of "5 bands for $5" type nights where the backline is provided for speed of changeover, cabs on stage for the players but DI'd to the PA for FOH.

1. What kind of conversation should I have with the sound guy? Don't want to piss him off but also want to make sure I share equal audio space FOH and not relegated to the sub-80Hz range.

2. Is it cool to ask the sound guy to record your set if you give him the gear to plug into the soundboard (iphone & irig) or is this a no-no?

EDIT: Apologies for the typo in the title - Should read "Managing". Cant edit the title once you post...

 

[moody]

Part one. Either he (or she) knows his stuff and you'll be fine or doesn't and you're not going to get any sense out of him.

Part two, depending on the reaction to part one. Really can't hurt to ask but don't necessarily expect a great mix.

 

[AlembicPlayer]

ditto what moody said

I will add this...
get there early with a input list and stage plot
soundguys love advanced info

 

[Steamtronic]

ditto what moody said

I will add this...
get there early with a input list and stage plot
soundguys love advanced info

Thanks...ever seen either of those things, im a total noob here...where can I get more info?

 

[AlembicPlayer]

Thanks...ever seen either of those things, im a total noob here...where can I get more info?

well, I would suggest you look at any working bands EPK
that is Electronic Press Kit

a good EPK will have a Technical Page with things like a tech rider, stage plot, input list.
google it and there is tons of info out there...and software to make nice looking stage plots


the best way is to have a EPK for your band(add it to your band's web site if you have one) ...then you can either refer the venue to it or print out your tech rider to bring to the gig(earlier the better)

around here you can't play many festivals and gigs without a EPK

 

[Steamtronic]

Brilliant, many thanks!

 

[RoadRanger]

Yah, sound guys with the mange LOL. Yur bassically screwed - but what I'd do is take two 2x10's stacked vertically and carry the room so the sound butcher can't cut out my mids. Make sure you EQ yourself with the full band blazin' - if you EQ yourself to sound right solo you'll get buried.

BTW I is a sound guy . I did a hard rock cover band last weekend where the bassist had an Acoustic 2x10 combo over a 1x15 extension cab that sounded great and carried the whole 300 cap room no prob - I just added some bottom into the subs, no bass into the tops. Hitting 100dB+ at 30 feet - Woo !

 

[Steamtronic]

Yah, sound guys with the mange LOL. Yur bassically screwed - but what I'd do is take two 2x10's stacked vertically and carry the room so the sound butcher can't cut out my mids. Make sure you EQ yourself with the full band blazin' - if you EQ yourself to sound right solo you'll get buried.

BTW I is a sound guy . I did a hard rock cover band last weekend where the bassist had an Acoustic 2x10 combo over a 1x15 extension cab that sounded great and carried the whole 300 cap room no prob - I just added some bottom into the subs, no bass into the tops. Hitting 100dB+ at 30 feet - Woo !

Thanks!

Am I right in thinking that it wont really matter to the audience how I EQ myself on stage, because the DI from the amp head goes from the pre and so I'm at the mercy of the sound guy? Also, will the effects loop from the head go out the heads DI, or do I have to plug my bass straight into my pedals so they will go to the sound guy?

 

[Downunderwonder]

Thanks...ever seen either of those things, im a total noob here...where can I get more info?

It's not rocket science, just a list of mics and DI's and a sketch of where you like to stand and put monitors, no blue M&M's. It will help to be flexible in extremis over the stage plot rather than be shifting amps all about on a multi band show.

 

[Downunderwonder]

Thanks!

Am I right in thinking that it wont really matter to the audience how I EQ myself on stage, because the DI from the amp head goes from the pre and so I'm at the mercy of the sound guy? Also, will the effects loop from the head go out the heads DI, or do I have to plug my bass straight into my pedals so they will go to the sound guy?

Post EQ has fx loop. Whether or not you are in the PA depends on relative size of room to the relative racket you are making on stage.

 

[JimmyM]

Thanks!

Am I right in thinking that it wont really matter to the audience how I EQ myself on stage, because the DI from the amp head goes from the pre and so I'm at the mercy of the sound guy? Also, will the effects loop from the head go out the heads DI, or do I have to plug my bass straight into my pedals so they will go to the sound guy?

Yes and no. Yes, you will be going through the PA and you will be predominantly heard from the PA, so you can sort of customize your tone for your use. No, because you will almost certainly be turned up loud enough to where everyone can still hear your rig.

EDIT: This all assumes you're using a decent enough PA to handle bass and you're not blasting so loud out of your amp that they literally can't put it in the PA.

 

[tonemachine]

Yah, sound guys with the mange LOL. Yur bassically screwed - but what I'd do is take two 2x10's stacked vertically and carry the room so the sound butcher can't cut out my mids. Make sure you EQ yourself with the full band blazin' - if you EQ yourself to sound right solo you'll get buried.

BTW I is a sound guy . I did a hard rock cover band last weekend where the bassist had an Acoustic 2x10 combo over a 1x15 extension cab that sounded great and carried the whole 300 cap room no prob - I just added some bottom into the subs, no bass into the tops. Hitting 100dB+ at 30 feet - Woo !

This 100%. At that level, take away the sound guys ability to ruin you. It's really difficult to make bass unlistenably loud in rock and roll gig. Too muddy, yes, so watch your eq.

 

[JollySpudd]

I will add this...
get there early with a input list and stage plot
soundguys love advanced info

Thanks...ever seen either of those things, im a total noob here...where can I get more info?

I'll sort of caution on this a little. If the sound tech is a real pro they'll likely appreciate the extra info, but, with a "5 bands/5 bucks" gig with a back line, they may not care about your stage plot : how you set up on stage, and may not care about your inputs, since they have it all laid out for one-size-fits-all from band to band.

Only mentioning as I ran into a situation where the venue asked for those stage plot/input specifics and then, after I turned them in, I was told - sorry, you have to set up this way and use what we have the way we have it. -- Fortunately the audio tech was not the same person rejecting the plot/input info, and was more amicable, but their hands were still somewhat tied as far has how we like to set up our personnel on stage - who goes where. So just be prepared to be flexible when giving such information, as well as possibly even humored or ignored. Day of show can be stressful for sound techs, so you have to roll with it.

If your bass is DI'd before your amp, then you'll have to trust the tech to balance you to his tastes out front, but, on stage, you can tweek your amp vol. a little to get a blend you like towards that equal presence with the guitar. At least that will help your performance and blend as you guys like to hear it. But, no harm in mentioning your forward blend with the bass.

As for recording, you can try that, too, but again, be flexible. Maybe ask well in advance of the show - days, if possible - to first see if the event is already being recorded. If so, then ask for a copy. If not, be as considerate as possible for what the tech can or can't do. He may not know how to run your recording gear.

For myself, as a person who's done live audio as well as recording, if I want to try to get a board mix to "tape" - if possible, I'll find out what brand/model the mixing board is and then research the manual on line to see what simple output options it has that would be the least invasive to take a line out from. Since I never want to impose, I like to know options and then ask permission, so dealing with it in advance, like AlembicPlayer said "get there early", is a good idea.

-- But having the tech hit "record" may or not go well in the midst of band change overs where the tech's attention is focused on moving the acts along. -- They may or not remember to hit "record" when it's time. -- It's a good idea to have a friend who knows - running the recorder in a very discreet way.

Lastly, if you are fortunate to get a line out from the mixer for recording, keep in mind, what the board balances with it's faders is also in consideration of what the amplifiers and live stage sound are kicking out into the room as well. This means that, for example, if the bass is loud in the room on stage to you, it may be quieter in it's level through the board, since stage volume is being factored into the overall balance to the listener.

In other words, a live board mix is not always representative of what it actually sounds like in the room. A sound board recording only reflects what is truly and exclusively controlled by the PA. So it's possible to get a board recording with really loud lead vocals and next to no bass (for example) - or, a board mix might sound unforgivingly perfect and dry, without the blend and ambience of the live room. You sorta never know. (Unless you're doing a more complex recording, like multi-track with separate mixing opportunities to balance levels just for the recording.)

In these situations it's a balance between the sound tech doing a good job for all the bands to serve everyone best, the audience especially -- as well as the bands being considerate of the event and being flexible. Everyone needs to accommodate one another. Being friendly and courteous goes a long way.

 

[seanm]

I've done a couple of 5 bands type gigs and you *don't* want to record from the mixer. Generally: no guitar, no bass, lots of vocals, keyboards (if applicable), DJ (if applicable) and maybe some drums but mainly kick. You will get a horrible mix.

 

[Kmonk]

We have had sound guys record off the board. They usually sound like crap. The reason is that typically, the only feed they have is off the monitor mix. In my old band, we usually brought a digital recorder and hung two mics and recorded live. Believe it or not, we actually have some great quality recordings.

 

[4Mal]

5 bands/5 bucks - don't even think about asking my company to record you... There is enough going on just getting you as dialed as we can without thinking about hooking up your recording gear, remembering to press record, etc... Wrong setting.

At least with me, if you tell me up front that the bass carries melody and that you guys are into The Jam/ XTC, etc.., I'll mix you that way and say hallelujah ! You had best bring the goods though! Now, that's entertainment...

 

[TomB]

We have had sound guys record off the board. They usually sound like crap. The reason is that typically, the only feed they have is off the monitor mix. In my old band, we usually brought a digital recorder and hung two mics and recorded live. Believe it or not, we actually have some great quality recordings.

A decent full-featured board will give the sound tech many options to feed a recording if they care or have the time (like if you're paying them to). If you're fully mic'ed and the tech cares enough, he/she can make an aux send sound decent vs. the main mix (still dry vs. ambient micing, but at least more balanced). Main or a monitor mix will sound like crap for all the reasons noted above.

 

[Geri O]

I won't get into whether to not the sound guy should be obligated to record your band, the crew on the scene will have to decide that. It seems simple enough, but on festivals, there's all kinda of crap bubbling here and there.

However, nearly any console capable of handing a festival or concert will have at the very least, a "tape out" set of RCA jack outputs that come straight from there stereo bus. A small step up will get you some matrix outputs. For years and years, we kept a CD burner as standard FOH equipment so we could burn a CD for the bands. It may be a pain in some situations, but it will get you a LOT of brownie points if, when asked if the band's set can be recorded, you can smile and say "I'll be happy to record your band". I kept a stack of blanks on hand and politely asked for a couple of dollars' donation, but if they didn't have it on them, I didn't press the issue since, at the time, I was buying 100 blank CDs at the time for various projects and writing them off. "Why did you provide the CDs?", you might ask? Because people are bad about buying blanks that are cheap and poorly-made (I actually got a blank CD with the "Dollar General" logo on it. They got a free blank out of me...)). If the CD doesn't burn, naturally, it's your fault and you just ruined their audition CD for American Idol.

If you want to give them a separate mix, and you have enough auxes, set up two (or one, mono is better than nothing) aux(es) for post-feeds and set the controls to nominal. You are starting with the house mix. but with headphones, you can nudge the inputs that may not be enough or may be too much in the mix. The board mix will be an inverse of the house mix (not really, but that's the best analogy we can come up with), so if the amps is really loud onstage, it won't be loud in the mix, so you can adjust it up on the aux mix. All of this is getting kinda involved and may be more than a festival FOH guy can keep up with (consecutive bands, no soundchecks, lousy info, oh crap, where did that sax and second acoustic guitar come from?)

These days, I keep a little Zoom recorder, a set of XLR-to-TRS or RCA cables, and various adapters in my bass kit. If we want to record (on a festival), I politely request a pair of returns from FOH to the stage where I can manage the Zoom recorder without burdening the sound guys about connecting, starting, and stopping the recording. In two years, I've down this only twice, but once I spoke with the audio guys, they were happy to set up the returns because they knew in advance.

Geez, I do have a talent for getting long-winded with these topics, don't I? Sorry about that. I Just hope it at least offers a little insight and helps someone out.

A question for the group: I have an interesting situation today. I'm playing with the 80s rock band for a 4th event. I was preparing to bring my X32 mixer, stage gear, IEM rig, and a couple of nice powered mains speakers for the event. I'm happy to arrive early and set it up, asking for help only to lift the mixer onto the table and the percussion guy is always willing to arrive early with me and help. However, the leaderman (the keyboardist and kinda by default, it's not "his" band per se) has decided that this is all too much hassle and he's bring his 8-channel powered mixer, a couple of 10" speakers on poles and a couple of wedges. This is perfectly fine with me, I'm not a glutton for punishment. Buttt...The perc player, guitarist, and drummer asked me to multi-track the band today so we could mix down a few tunes for a demo video. All of this was discussed at a full-band rehearsal 2 weeks ago, but the leaderman out of the blue texted me a couple of days ago and said to not bring my stuff, he'd bring the little stuff. So I'm keeping quiet about that to the rest of the band and let it shake out today as it will.

Is that the right way to handle this situation?

 

[jamro217]

"Them mangey sound guys are at it agin, Uncle Jed."

 

[RoadRanger]

"Them mangey sound guys are at it agin, Uncle Jed."

Just chase 'em off with a bar of soap .