Matching the proper head to my 210 cabs

[Ron Berenato]

I bought 2 Peavey headliner 210 cabs several years ago for a reunion gig that never happened. They're still new in the box in storage. When I bought them I thought they were 400 watt cabinets (as advertised) but in another thread I was informed that they are only 200 watt cabinets. I'm looking for a suitable head to use with either 1 or both cabs. I'm looking at the 200 watt GK MB200 head but would like to know if anyone else is using these cabinets and what amps they're using. Would I be OK with a 300 / 350 watt head if I watch my volume?

 

[michael_t]

I bought 2 Peavey headliner 210 cabs several years ago for a reunion gig that never happened. They're still new in the box in storage. When I bought them I thought they were 400 watt cabinets (as advertised) but in another thread I was informed that they are only 200 watt cabinets. I'm looking for a suitable head to use with either 1 or both cabs. I'm looking at the 200 watt GK MB200 head but would like to know if anyone else is using these cabinets and what amps they're using. Would I be OK with a 300 / 350 watt head if I watch my volume?

Mesa Subway D-350 = 350w at 4ohm and 175w at 8ohm. It would be perfect for those cabs.

 

[Zooberwerx]

Mesa Subway D-350 = 350w at 4ohm and 175w at 8ohm. It would be perfect for those cabs.

Agreed. (2) 200 watt RMS, 8 ohm enclosures gives you 400 watts / 4 ohm. Lots of options available plus the added modularity bonus. The oft advertised "400 watt" label is "program" power handling.

Riis

 

[Wasnex]

Would I be OK with a 300 / 350 watt head if I watch my volume?

Yes. As long as the cab combination you use can easily provide more volume than you need and you don't do something stupid, it's relatively safe to use an amp with a higher power rating than the cabs.

Doing something stupid could include cranking up the amp to see how loud your rig can play. The speakers may sound great all the way up to the point where they go dead. Alternately, it would be stupid to try and force the cabs to produce fatter lows than they can provide. If you need high volume, it's a really good idea to use a high pass filter and perhaps dial back the lows a bit to protect the drivers from over excursion.

Unfortunately the spec sheet for the Headliner 210 does not mention the sensitivity rating for the cab. So I can't do give you the calculated SPL.

What I can do tell you is that a pair of matching cabs can play about 6dB louder than one cab. So if you have any doubt that one cab will be loud enough, bring both. In order to achieve the full +6dB, the power needs to double when the second cab is added. If the total power stays the same you only get +3dB from adding a matching cab.

Here is the 210 Headliner power specs:

These are misleading. The RMS power rating is basically a long term or average rating that indicates how much power the voice coils can handle without overheating. The problem is the mechanical power rating below 100hz may be significantly less than the RMS power rating. This pretty much makes the Program and Peak power ratings irrelevant for bass.


Even though they are probably not useful in this example, I will still try to explain what Program and Peak power are. These terms relate to the way drivers are tested. A test waveform is used with varying amplitude. The waveform is shaped so that the long term power = the RMS power rating and the short term max (Program power) is = to 2X the RMS power rating. So Program power is a short term max rating for how much power the drivers can handle. However as I mentioned, this does not account for the driver's low frequency mechanical limits, which are determined by the driver's characteristics as well as the design of the speaker cabinet. If you put the same driver in two different cab designs, the mechanical power rating is likely to vary.

The Peak power rating is an instantaneous value. However it also involves a conversion of units. RMS and Program power use RMS volts and RMS Watts. Peak power uses Peak volts and Peak Watts. To convert RMS Volts to Peak Volts you multiple by the sq rt of 2 (~1.41). To convert Peak Volts to RMS Volts you divide by sq rt of 2.

If you do the math you will find that 1W RMS = 2W Peak. So, in regards to the 210 Headliner specs, 400W RMS Program = 800W Peak. Both figures represent the exact some power level. It's the same exact waveform and the difference is basically where on the waveform the voltage is measure.

The 210 Headliner is an 8 ohm cab. Let's determine the RMS and Peak voltage for 400W Program and 800W Peak

400W RMS
Voltage = sq rt(400 x 8) = ~56.57V RMS

800W Peak
Voltage = sq rt(800 x 8) = 80Vp

If we multiple the RMS voltage by square rt of 2
~56.57 c sq rt(2) = 80Vp

I.E. ~56.57V RMS = 80Vp.

Back to the sine wave above.
If we measure ~56.57V RMS at the red line for 400W RMS Program, we also measure 80Vp at the top line for 800Wp...but it's the exact same waveform.

 

[agedhorse]

Yes. As long as the cab combination you use can easily provide more volume than you need and you don't do something stupid, it's relatively safe to use an amp with a higher power rating than the cabs.

Doing something stupid could include cranking up the amp to see how loud your rig can play. The speakers may sound great all the way up to the point where they go dead. Alternately, it would be stupid to try and force the cabs to produce fatter lows than they can provide. If you need high volume, it's a really good idea to use a high pass filter and perhaps dial back the lows a bit to protect the drivers from over excursion.

Unfortunately the spec sheet for the Headliner 210 does not mention the sensitivity rating for the cab. So I can't do give you the calculated SPL.

What I can do tell you is that a pair of matching cabs can play about 6dB louder than one cab. So if you have any doubt that one cab will be loud enough, bring both. In order to achieve the full +6dB, the power needs to double when the second cab is added. If the total power stays the same you only get +3dB from adding a matching cab.

Here is the 210 Headliner power specs:
View attachment 7435536

These are misleading. The RMS power rating is basically a long term or average rating that indicates how much power the voice coils can handle without overheating. The problem is the mechanical power rating below 100hz may be significantly less than the RMS power rating. This pretty much makes the Program and Peak power ratings irrelevant for bass.


Even though they are probably not useful in this example, I will still try to explain what Program and Peak power are. These terms relate to the way drivers are tested. A test waveform is used with varying amplitude. The waveform is shaped so that the long term power = the RMS power rating and the short term max (Program power) is = to 2X the RMS power rating. So Program power is a short term max rating for how much power the drivers can handle. However as I mentioned, this does not account for the driver's low frequency mechanical limits, which are determined by the driver's characteristics as well as the design of the speaker cabinet. If you put the same driver in two different cab designs, the mechanical power rating is likely to vary.

The Peak power rating is an instantaneous value. However it also involves a conversion of units. RMS and Program power use RMS volts and RMS Watts. Peak power uses Peak volts and Peak Watts. To convert RMS Volts to Peak Volts you multiple by the sq rt of 2 (~1.41). To convert Peak Volts to RMS Volts you divide by sq rt of 2.

If you do the math you will find that 1W RMS = 2W Peak. So, in regards to the 210 Headliner specs, 400W RMS Program = 800W Peak. Both figures represent the exact some power level. It's the same exact waveform and the difference is basically where on the waveform the voltage is measure.

View attachment 7435538

The 210 Headliner is an 8 ohm cab. Let's determine the RMS and Peak voltage for 400W Program and 800W Peak

400W RMS
Voltage = sq rt(400 x 8) = ~56.57V RMS

800W Peak
Voltage = sq rt(800 x 8) = 80Vp

If we multiple the RMS voltage by square rt of 2
~56.57 c sq rt(2) = 80Vp

I.E. ~56.57V RMS = 80Vp.

Back to the sine wave above.
If we measure ~56.57V RMS at the red line for 400W RMS Program, we also measure 80Vp at the top line for 800Wp...but it's the exact same waveform.

You have this scrambles up pretty much by getting too complicated by intermixing amp ratings and speaker ratings...

First discussing speakers, the Headliner 210 is 200 watts RMS and is an 8 ohm cabinet, this is 40V RMS, but the voltage doesn't matter.

Now, program power is defined by convention as 2x the RMS power, equating to "short term power handling" which would be 400 watts program (presumably but not always RMS since no units are specified, most cabinet will be damaged by this amount of power, but it's a good looking marketing number"

Then from the program power number, peak power is defined as 2x the program power which would be "800 watts peak", this is just the conversion from RMS power to peak power of exactly the same waveform... leading to an even better marketing number.

From this, I think it becomes obvious why the RMS value for power handling it the most useful to the most players.


Where amplifiers are being discussed, there is no program power specification, therefore the conversion from RMS to peak power is to multiply RMS power by 2. This is due to the difference between RMS and peak values of the voltage waveform and the conversion from voltage to power (knowing the impedance)

 

[Ron Berenato]

Wow. This is exceptional information. Thank you all.

 

[Gervais Cote]

I have a Traynor SB 200H among others and I’m very satisfied but if you could try a Warwick Gnome you could be surprised. Don’t get fooled by its size, it’s very capable.

The Peavy Minimax is another very affordable and powerful machine but might be too hot for your cab unless you’re polite with the volume knob.

 

[logdrum]

In simple terms take manufacturers claim with a grain of salt even though it may raise your sodium levels because if you blow a cab , your blood pressure will surely rise. Mesa is one of them companies that publish proper specs. They also had been the choice by heavy metal bands for a while now.

Smaller amps like Gnome, or Ant or Elf may be a safer bet. If you are going to go more expensive like a Mesa D350, it's almost expected to get a nicer cab too, but that's just me being vain.

 

[Mastiff_5]

Mesa Subway D-350 = 350w at 4ohm and 175w at 8ohm. It would be perfect for those cabs.

^^^ This.

 

[Wasnex]

You have this scrambles up pretty much by getting too complicated by intermixing amp ratings and speaker ratings...

AFAIK the common recommendation is to use the RMS power rating of both amp and cab. The assumption is a cab is relatively safe as long as its RMS power rating is equal to or larger then the RMS power rating of the amp. However, it's important to know that the mechanical power rating of many, if not most cabs is less than their RMS power rating; so some degree of discretion and restraint is prudent.

The only brands I am aware of that publish Mechanical power handling specs for their bass cabs are Mesa and Acme.

While I did discuss Program and Peak power ratings, I pretty directly implied they should be ignored.

Now, program power is defined by convention as 2x the RMS power, equating to "short term power handling" which would be 400 watts program (presumably but not always RMS since no units are specified,

AFAIK the relevant speaker test standards define the RMS value and Peak value, and specify a 6dB crest factor. Program power is assumed to be 3dB higher than the RMS value and 3dB below the Peak value.

So I guess you can't really measure Program power with an RMS or Peak voltmeter. The RMS voltmeter will show the RMS value of the waveform and the Peak Voltmeter will measure the Peak value of the waveform. AFAIK the caveat is one needs a True RMS voltmeter to take the RMS voltage reading. AFAIK a regular multimeter like the old Simpson 260 would measure high or possibly bounce around a bit.

I will restate my advice to ignore/disregard Program power and Peak power ratings with bass cabs.

 

[agedhorse]

AFAIK the common recommendation is to use the RMS power rating of both amp and cab. The assumption is a cab is relatively safe as long as its RMS power rating is equal to or larger then the RMS power rating of the amp. However, it's important to know that the mechanical power rating of many, if not most cabs is less than their RMS power rating; so some degree of discretion and restraint is prudent.

The only brands I am aware of that publish Mechanical power handling specs for their bass cabs are Mesa and Acme.

While I did discuss Program and Peak power ratings, I pretty directly implied they should be ignored.


AFAIK the relevant speaker test standards define the RMS value and Peak value, and specify a 6dB crest factor. Program power is assumed to be 3dB higher than the RMS value and 3dB below the Peak value.

So I guess you can't really measure Program power with an RMS or Peak voltmeter. The RMS voltmeter will show the RMS value of the waveform and the Peak Voltmeter will measure the Peak value of the waveform. AFAIK the caveat is one needs a True RMS voltmeter to take the RMS voltage reading. AFAIK a regular multimeter like the old Simpson 260 would measure high or possibly bounce around a bit.

I will restate my advice to ignore/disregard Program power and Peak power ratings with bass cabs.

Program power is a purely made up, calculated number, it does't exist "in reality". For testing purposes a suitable test signal can be generated, but this goes well beyond a discussion here.

 

[Topkat13]

Here's an idea...Peavey

 

[Solipsistik]

What am I missing here, the Peavey cabs are rated at 400W program and 800W peak at 8ohms. Unless your amp is incapable of providing 400W of power at 8ohms (which it probably is), they're at least 400W cabinets. To be fair, most 500W heads will only provide 300W of power to 8ohms but that's still well beyond 200W, now isn't it?

I mean, since you already paid for them, just unbox them, hook them up (they're 8ohms, so almost any head can handle it in parallel) and see if they meet with your expectation. There's no warranty or return on them, so why not? Your head is likely rated at 350W at 4ohms and uh, yeah you're going to get no more than 200W @ 8ohms out of it but that's well less than the rating of the cabs. Hooked in parallel as others have said, unless you have more power, you're not going to get much more actual sound pressure out of them.

 

[Guitalia]

Here's an idea...Peavey

What I came here to say. Not just Peavey, but a Peavey Headliner head.

I have a half-dozen bass heads, including a Ampeg PF-800, an old GK, and several tube amps of various power levels, but my favorite is my Headliner 700.

That was the first Headliner amp, released back when Peavey briefly played the name-the-amp-using-the-peak-wattage-number game, so it's actually 350 watts RMS. But it's loud the way a tube amp of that wattage is loud.

As BobbyB, the Peavey amp designer who used to participate on TalkBass, once said in a reply to a post.of mine praising the head: the MiniMax was designed for maximum flexibility for modern bass styles; the Headliner was designed for "unbridled volume."

Which I took to mean that it rolls off the low end at higher volumes the way tube amps do, increasing the relative predominance of the mid-range and thus increasing the apparent volume. Works for me.

Guitar Center and a couple of other websites, including Music-Go-Round, currently list some Headliner amps for reasonable prices.

Note that the Headliner 1000, the successor to the one I own, is actually 1,000 watts RMS.

Edit: looked up reviews of the 1000 model and found this: a pair of guys, who might be more than a bit sozzled, putting it to the est on the Anderson Music website.

 

[agedhorse]

What am I missing here, the Peavey cabs are rated at 400W program and 800W peak at 8ohms. Unless your amp is incapable of providing 400W of power at 8ohms (which it probably is), they're at least 400W cabinets. To be fair, most 500W heads will only provide 300W of power to 8ohms but that's still well beyond 200W, now isn't it?

I mean, since you already paid for them, just unbox them, hook them up (they're 8ohms, so almost any head can handle it in parallel) and see if they meet with your expectation. There's no warranty or return on them, so why not? Your head is likely rated at 350W at 4ohms and uh, yeah you're going to get no more than 200W @ 8ohms out of it but that's well less than the rating of the cabs. Hooked in parallel as others have said, unless you have more power, you're not going to get much more actual sound pressure out of them.

What you aren't understanding is that they are 200 watt RMS rated, 8 ohm cabinets. 400 watts program power is essentially a meaningless marketing number that's intended to confuse things (like you have been confused).

Some of the suggestions being made are for amps that deliver well beyond 200 watts RMS at 8 ohms, which is riskier with a cabinet rated at 200 watts RMS. That's why some of use are trying to explain this.

 

[Thumpin6string]

Any head that puts out 400 watts or less at 4 ohms should work fine with each cab and even better with both cabs. You could go higher wattage but you would need to be very careful with how far you turn it up. Better to be safe than sorry IMHO.

 

[Nebadon2000]

Program power is a purely made up, calculated number, it does't exist "in reality". For testing purposes a suitable test signal can be generated, but this goes well beyond a discussion here.

I would guess most owners of these Cabs say they are 800 watt speakers even though speakers don't have what's

Many Marketing people in Home or Music Gear know buyers compare and judge equipment by Specs and know which ones trigger them

When I worked in Home Audio Bussines learned the hardway when trying to educate or explain true meaning of Spec's most customers Ego's took it as I was attacking them and their choices

As I believe you have may have experienced some of that here

 

[agedhorse]

I would guess most owners of these Cabs say they are 800 watt speakers even though speakers don't have what's

Many Marketing people in Home or Music Gear know buyers compare and judge equipment by Specs and know which ones trigger them

When I worked in Home Audio Bussines learned the hardware when trying to educate or explain true meaning of Spec's most customers Ego's took it as I was attacking them and their choices

As I believe you have may have experienced some of that here

Yup, and it's why large amps destroy speakers with large "peak marketing power" numbers, the users don't know that they have a poor match until the repair bill arrives.

PMP = peak music power, but also peak marketing power!

 

[braud357]

Here's an idea...Peavey

I am using a similar rig - (2) 2x10 cabs. I have a Peavey MiniMax v2, and I am very pleased with it !

 

[groove pump]

I bought 2 Peavey headliner 210 cabs several years ago for a reunion gig that never happened. They're still new in the box in storage. When I bought them I thought they were 400 watt cabinets (as advertised) but in another thread I was informed that they are only 200 watt cabinets. I'm looking for a suitable head to use with either 1 or both cabs. I'm looking at the 200 watt GK MB200 head but would like to know if anyone else is using these cabinets and what amps they're using. Would I be OK with a 300 / 350 watt head if I watch my volume?

I can only offer that I've had a GK MB 500 for a few years and it's remarkably loud when I use it to run my pair of 2x10 cabs (these are rated at 350 watts RMS and 8 ohms). If I had gone for the 800 watt version of this head, it would have been way too much for my needs - and I often play classic rock and dance covers with my band without PA support. In the wake of my experience with this head, I have to assume that all the GK MB heads punch a bit above their weight.

The GK MB 200 might be happy to get those Peavey cabs honkin' nicely for you, but even if you went for a different amp with a little more power, I'd bet that you should be fine as long as you don't go nuts with the amp's master volume or any extreme eq settings. A 300-400 watt head could be great as long as the cabs give that head the minimum resistance it requires.