Mental models while playing/practicing

[attackz]

Hi everyone, I've got a couple of questions that have ben really bugging me recently. I'm finding it really difficult to get others thoughts on this so I thought I'd give this forum a shot

Let me preface this by saying that right now I'm at a stage in my playing where I'm technically very comfortable with the instrument. I've spent a lot of time learning and playing songs, and have landed some nice gigs but really need to up my understanding of harmony.

As I've started trying to do this, I'm slowly coming to the conclusion that music is mostly a mental game, so I'm trying to get really into the weeds of what's going on in people's minds as they play.

I'm not necessarily thinking about what's going on while you're performing - although that is important. I'm more interested in what you aspire to master during practice.

So, on to my first question

To what extent are you able (or would like to be able) to think/say the names of the notes that you're playing while you're playing them? If I'm playing through scales in 1/8th notes 100bpm I can, for the most part, say the names of the notes while I'm playing them. It's difficult for me to name the notes at faster tempos because I can't say them quickly enough. If you think it's useful to be able to do this, do you visualise the notes instead or use some other metal model to think about them? Maybe you visualise letters, or notes on a stave, or something else entirely? Is this even important, or useful?

Secondly, if you think of a chord, say A major 7, how many steps do you have to go through to spell out the notes in that chord? Do you instantly know its A C# E G#, or do you know that the stacked thirds are going to be A, C, E, G then think of what sharps/flats A Major has, then apply that to the notes? Or maybe there's some other way. It seems to me that it must be preferable to be able to know instantly which notes make up a given chord, it's quite a lot of info to memorise though. Any tips?

To add some color to where I currently am, I find that it's easier to think about scale functions while I'm playing because I can lean on patterns that I know. I can derive the note from the pattern, but that doesn't feel super useful to me beyond scaffolding for further learning; it seems self-evident to me that the best state to be in is one where you can recall all of this stuff near instantly.

Edit: Just thought I'd add a quick note to say that I'm looking at this from two perspectives, what is _possible_ and what is _useful_. It would be really cool if someone came back to me and told me that they could easily think of what note they were playing at any tempo, and how they were thinking. That would give me something to aspire to It would also be amazing to hear what sort of practice you used to achieve it. It would be equally as cool to hear someone from Berklee come back to me and tell me that I'm over-thinking everything, and help me frame these questions in a way that could help me figure out what 'good enough' is.

Thanks for reading all of this!

 

[ba55i5t]

I prefer to think in shapes over notes. Its a mentally less cumbersome way for me to think about the "right notes". It takes me longer to name the notes than to get the shape down. I know the notes on the fretboard but I know shapes better.

When I practice I practice in keys, going from lowest available mode to highest available mode. Then I practice modal playing looking for common tonal centres. The next step for me is to look at Coltrane changes which may ultimately destroy the framework I have thus far.

You should check out the berklee bass books. There's one I have that introduced me to this but I forget the name now. I'll mention it later.

 

[attackz]

I prefer to think in shapes over notes. Its a mentally less cumbersome way for me to think about the "right notes". It takes me longer to name the notes than to get the shape down. I know the notes on the fretboard but I know shapes better.

When I practice I practice in keys, going from lowest available mode to highest available mode. Then I practice modal playing looking for common tonal centres. The next step for me is to look at Coltrane changes which may ultimately destroy the framework I have thus far.

You should check out the berklee bass books. There's one I have that introduced me to this but I forget the name now. I'll mention it later.

Thanks for you reply. Is the book 'Playing the changes, a linear approach to improvisation"?

 

[mambo4]

do you visualise the notes instead or use some other metal model to think about them? Maybe you visualise letters, or notes on a stave, or something else entirely?

i tend to fall back on a mental model of relative intervals over specific note names
eg 1 3 5 rather than C E G
my default model is the major scale intervals as numbers 1 2 3 4 5 6 7
altered as needed
eg 1 b3 5 rather than A C E


but ultimately you should not be visualizing but auralizing:
you want to think in sounds...music...

 

[ba55i5t]

Thanks for you reply. Is the book 'Playing the changes, a linear approach to improvisation"?

That's the one.

If you're interested in further developing this style try soloing over So What and Cantaloupe Island.

 

[Joe Nerve]

I am in a completely different place, and I'm thinking it would probably serve me to practice thinking like you, and serve you to practice thinking like me - if we're both looking to truly up our game and become even better musicians.

When I'm playing I'm most conscious of making every note count, putting all the emotion I possibly can into it, and making what I play sit perfectly with the rest of the band/music it's mixing with. The notes, the scales, the science and math of it all never comes into play. My ears, gut and instinct take care of that.

 

[MalcolmAmos]

....
To what extent are you able (or would like to be able) to think/say the names of the notes that you're playing while you're playing them?

If I am running scales I use the major scale box pattern and then think in scale degree numbers. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8 Same with modes, I place the root note then play R-b3-4-5-6-b7 for Dorian or R-2-3-#4-5-6-7-8 for Lydian. If I'm playing from chord charts where the note name is listed I gather my root from first position, (first 5 frets) and then if I want to add to the root I know where the other chord tones or non chord tones are located. But, here I think of them as being scale degree numbers, i.e. 3-5-b7, not note names. Yes patterns and I are old friends. I had to memorize all that chord and scale "spelling". And I had to memorize that all 3's live up a string and back a fret from the root you are on. Same with the rest of the notes - they are always in their spot just waiting on me. I just had to memorize where those spots are in relation to the root I'm using. Should mention I play from chord charts, aka, fake chord sheet music. Every band director I've ever worked for handed out fake chord sheet music. If you will be playing from fake chord keep reading. If you will be playing from standard notation, you've read far enough.

Secondly, if you think of a chord, say A major 7, how many steps do you have to go through to spell out the notes in that chord? Do you instantly know its A C# E G#,

No I instantly know it's chord tones are R-3-5-7. If I am playing from chord charts that name the chord and see a Amaj7 chord I first find the root. Where, if I am going to be using chord names throughout the song I find the A root in first position. If I want the rest of that chord's notes, aka, the 3-5-7 I do that by knowing 3's are up a string and back a fret. The 5's are up a string and over two frets, or down a string same fret. And the 7 is up two strings and over one fret. I'm still working in first position. So I use both chord names and 1, 2, 3's, i.e. I think in both A, B, C and 1, 2, 3. To do that I have had to memorize the chord spelling for all the chords and scales I normally run up on, i.e. C =- R-3-5 and Cm7 = R-b3-5-b7. See a chord and I know what full scale degree could be used. How much of that I use depends on the song. Seldom do I get off into jazz where full R-3-5-7's are needed. Most of my bass lines revolve around roots, fives and octave 8's. When I "feel the need" I may throw in some non-chord tone notes in passing, but, normally I stick with the tried and true.

To add some color to where I currently am, I find that it's easier to think about scale functions while I'm playing because I can lean on patterns that I know. I can derive the note from the pattern, but that doesn't feel super useful to me beyond scaffolding for further learning; it seems self-evident to me that the best state to be in is one where you can recall all of this stuff near instantly.

Yes, if you have to think it out the music has gone off and left you. Color notes are the non-chord tones 2, 4, & 6. I know where 2's like to be inserted. I also know where the 4 and 6 like to be used. If I let them do what they like good things normally happen.

Edit: Just thought I'd add a quick note to say that I'm looking at this from two perspectives, what is _possible_ and what is _useful_. It would be really cool if someone came back to me and told me that they could easily think of what note they were playing at any tempo, and how they were thinking. That would give me something to aspire to It would also be amazing to hear what sort of practice you used to achieve it. It would be equally as cool to hear someone from Berklee come back to me and tell me that I'm over-thinking everything, and help me frame these questions in a way that could help me figure out what 'good enough' is. Thanks for reading all of this!

After placing the root name I then think in scale degree numbers for the color or flavor notes.

I play most of the time from Nashville numbers, and here it is all 1, 2, 3. But when handed a piece of fake chord where I do not have time to transpose to Nashville numbers I then play the chord name in first position. D chord coming up, I'll grab the D over the A @ the 5th fret. If I want the 5 I know where it is. I do not use open string notes. Why? My choice. Perhaps a little detail. If I play from both open string notes and fretted notes and have an A chord coming up I have to debate with my self should I use open string A or catch it on the 4th string 5th fret. During this debate the music has gone off and left me. So long ago I decided to use fretted notes.

This is what I do, right or wrong I'll not get into, it is just what I do.

 

[jallenbass]

Not a direct response to the OP but interesting none the less.

Invalid Link Removed

 

[HandsFree]

Obviously it is useful to know the names of the notes you are playing. But if you know them, but just can't say them quickly enough at a high tempo, I don't see any advantage in practising fast-speech. That has nothing to do with music or bass playing.
With scales it's much easier btw because you get in the groove of going 1 up/down the alphabet. Naming notes while playing something meaningful is much harder.

I can spell out A major 7, or any common chord, without thinking of the underlying theory. That's because I played it so often, not because I ever actively memorized it.
I don't recommend putting time in memorizing scales or chord charts, you'll just forget it over time. Of course you should memorize the theory. So first time you see AMaj7 you have to take the time to build it up. Second time should be faster. Thousandth time, you just know it.

All this is much easier on a piano, because of the repeating pattern of 2 and 3 black keys. If you know the first black key of the 3-group is F#/Gb you'll recognize it immediately, always. On a bass neck everything looks (more or less) the same, so for us it is easier to think in distances than in absolute pitches.

So is it useful to know all the notes at any tempo, yes. But only if it is the result of internalizing everything you've learned and played. If it's a goal in itself that is reached by just memorizing charts, then I'd say that has been a waste of time.

 

[xyloeye]

This is a great discussion. I was recently criticized for playing the notes accurately but not feeling the music. Something about playing looking from outside in rather than looking from inside out, whatever that means. I play in a big band - Maynard, Goodwin, Basie,etc. While I understand the concept, I can't figure out how to get away from the printed notes to the feel of the chart, especially in slow blues. I know the theory and intervals but how do you get to playing from your head instead of just reading the notes?

 

[MalcolmAmos]

When Your head starts moving with the beat - you are grooving. If your body is not moving with the song you are not into - it.

 

[dreamadream99]

To what extent are you able to think/say the names of the notes that you're playing while you're playing them?

If you aspire to be able to sightread, You absolutely must know every single note you play, and all these other suggested systems (patterns, intervals, boxes) are just ways around that.

If you don't aspire to be a sightreader, or a reader at all, then it's not as important, but as an educator I view those systems as "longcuts" (because they circumvent knowing the note, and actually take longer to mentally process).

Do you instantly know its A C# E G#

Well, I do, but I learned theory on piano, and after enough time playing those, it's just second nature now (the same way you no longer have to think how to spell "hello").

 

[BassChuck]

How fast can you think of the sound of each letter in every word that you speak when you are having a conversation? When you are listening to someone talking, how do you manage to think of how each word is spelled? When you learned to read out loud, how long did it take you to remember exactly how to move your tongue to shape each word? When you tie your shoes, do you think about how to move your hands? If you were to shoot a foul shot in basketball, what muscles do you use? When you walk, do you think 'left, right, left, right'?

The goal with bass playing (and many other things in life) is to work on focusing on the outcome, not the method.