Mental process while playing

[mjnyc]

Hello. New to this forum. Retired, now with some free time, took up guitar about 2 years ago, now bass guitar for past few months. Not quite sure how to phrase my question, but let me try.

I'm now familiar with the notes on the E and A strings, and also have a fair grasp of the pattern of scale degrees surrounding a given root note. So if I play a G root, I can visualize where the 3, 5, 6 flat 7 and all of them are relative to the root.

When playing a song, I either know or can read from a chart the chord progressions. When playing along with those chords, I basically decide on where the root will be on the fretboard and then can choose other notes to play based on the chord tones (so if it's a dominant 7, I know R 3 5 flat7) or else on the appropriate scale (mixolydian in this case), possibly tossing in some chromatic notes.

But it seems to me there are several possible "mental" approaches to doing this:

1. As above, find the root, have the note degree patterns in mind and aim for the appropriate notes based on the type of chord (using scale degrees).

2. Similar, but for each chord type, assuming a consistent fingering relative to the root, just have in mind a pattern (muscle memory) for the chord tones and scale, without necessarily going through the intermediate step of thinking of the scale degree.

3. After having played for a long time, become aware of what each fretted note, relative to the root, sounds like and be able to choose a note based on what sounds good in your head and know where it is. This seems pretty advanced and maybe impossible for me, but wondering...

4. Any other systems?

Finally, all of this assumes staying around one area of the fretboard based on the root. When moving elsewhere, does one do the same thing but base it on a different root location or keep things relative to the original root location?

I guess this is a long-winded way of asking: what goes through your head when you play?

Sorry for lengthy post.

mj

 

[FatStringer52]

For me, it's kind like a game of pool - when you're getting ready to take your shot, you're already planning your next shot. Much the same in music for me. While I'm playing one chord, I'm already thinking about the transition to the next. And more than likely I am thinking in the terms of numbers. For example, moving from the I chord to the vi chord to the ii chord to the V chord. To do this you really have to build up your vocabulary for movement between chords. And you have to have options for moving up in pitch or down in pitch. And there are many techniques for targeting the next chord - diatonic, chromatic, enclosures, etc. They can be as simple or as complex as you want them to be for the style of music you play. Start building your vocabulary with just a couple for moving in each direction and over time you will gradually add more and more which will make you a much more versatile player. As an example, movement from the V chord to the I chord is a must know. Start by using chord tones and scales to move from the V up to the I and also from the V down to the I. Once these become part of your vocabulary you can begin to add more.

 

[Mushroo]

4. Any other systems?

4. Instead of making up your own bass line, try learning the actual bass line to the song, note-for-note. If you've done your homework and learned the song ahead of time, then you don't need to do any mental gyrations (like "what is the b7 of this chord?") in real-time while you are playing. If you are looking for hints to take your playing to the "next level" then that is my advice: learn the "real" bass line to the song.

To specifically answer your "mental process" question, usually what's going through my head while I'm playing is that I'm singing silently to myself, either my bass part or the lyrics to the song. For example when I play "Brown Eyed Girl" I'm mentally scat-singing "bum bum bum, bum bum bum, boop boop boop bee doo bah" instead of note names or mathematical equations. (And then maybe when we get to the chorus, I'm mentally singing the "sha la la la" instead of my bass line, cuz it's so damn catchy!)

 

[mjnyc]

For me, it's kind like a game of pool - when you're getting ready to take your shot, you're already planning your next shot. ..... Start by using chord tones and scales to move from the V up to the I and also from the V down to the I. Once these become part of your vocabulary you can begin to add more.

Thanks! Actually, this brings up another question I have. If you're moving from say the I chord up to a V chord, do you shift the whole "box" up two frets so that the root is now on the V, which makes playing a pattern easier, or do you try to stay in the original box with the root on the I and choose different notes to play a V chord (which seems pretty complicated to me).

mj

 

[mjnyc]

4. Instead of making up your own bass line, try learning the actual bass line to the song, note-for-note. ...

Makes complete sense, especially for pop/rock where there are such well known versions. In jazz I feel like it's harder to decide what version to learn.

 

[Mushroo]

Makes complete sense, especially for pop/rock where there are such well known versions. In jazz I feel like it's harder to decide what version to learn.

You're right, jazz is hard, but please don't use that as an excuse to feel discouraged! Start with easy songs, and gradually work your way up, as you gain experience.

Do you have a "Real Book"? Usually at the bottom of the page for each song, they suggest an "iconic" recorded version for you to listen to.

 

[FatStringer52]

Thanks! Actually, this brings up another question I have. If you're moving from say the I chord up to a V chord, do you shift the whole "box" up two frets so that the root is now on the V, which makes playing a pattern easier, or do you try to stay in the original box with the root on the I and choose different notes to play a V chord (which seems pretty complicated to me).

mj

Both choices are viable options, as well as a couple more. It would really depend on where you would be going from there. And remember, there are a multitude of patterns to play the same line. For example, there are five basic patterns to play a Maj7 arpeggio - all one one string, over two strings and 3 different ways covering 3 strings (starting from your 1st finger, starting from you 2nd/3rd finger & starting from your4th finger). And we haven't even addressed playing the 3rd, 5th & 7th below the root yet or inversions. I know this is a lot of information and it probably seems overwhelming. But you've got to start somewhere. So, shifting up to play the V with a pattern you already know is an option and you should add it to your vocabulary, as well as working down to the V, in which case you will already be in position. As time goes on you'll pick up on these other patterns and add them to your vocabulary.

 

[el murdoque]

5. Trial And Error Becomes Sorted Chaos
When you've spent some time playing like this (a song you don't know, improvised jamming or a song you know from listening, but you've never played it and have no clue of how the original bass part goes), or when you're composing your own bass lines - even when you learn songs, you pick up things.
I mean, there are only so many notes and so many chords that work for contemporary music. (Jazz, of course has a lot more than most others).

So you're bound to find several ways to, let's say, go from D minor to A major. When you've played several of those by covering or composing, some will stick with you - or you might modify them to suit your taste better ... but in the end you'll wind up with a certain arsenal of ways to go from d to A. This bouquet of options will present itself in the back of your mind, should you run into the situation where you happen to play across that chord change in the wild. So rather than constructing one on the fly, you'll just pluck a tried and tested one from your experience and go with that.

 

[mjnyc]

I guess all the theory is important but still requires lots of playing, which must sort of cement things after a while. Thanks for all the input.

mj

 

[mjnyc]

Both choices are viable options, as well as a couple more. .... As time goes on you'll pick up on these other patterns and add them to your vocabulary.

This makes a lot of sense. I've been concentrating on one specific box pattern, with the root at the lower end of the box, and I know at some point I'll have to work with other ones but don't want to get confused yet.

mj

 

[FatStringer52]

This makes a lot of sense. I've been concentrating on one specific box pattern, with the root at the lower end of the box, and I know at some point I'll have to work with other ones but don't want to get confused yet.

mj

It's a journey . . . a looong journey. Don't rush yourself and enjoy the "sites" along the way.

 

[smeet]

I am a very analytical person. I like to study the theory behind everything, to figure out Why something sounds good or bad,etc. But when I play, much of that goes out the window.

I think for me music comes from a different part of the brain than other things. My knowledge seeps in, and with some effort I can purposely bring out stuff that I have practiced. But almost everything comes out as a mixture of ear and hands, not so much higher brain function. This is true whether I’m reading, playing jazz, or jamming on an E minor chord. I’m still analytical, but more in terms of what sound I want to create. Otherwise I kind of drift in and out of thinking and not-thinking.

I’ll emphasize that I don’t do that on purpose, it’s just the way I’m wired. So what I try to do is to learn things deeply, horizontally, vertically, harmonically, backwards and forwards. At some point it will click, and I can pull it out instinctively.

I will say that my favorite state of mind when playing is when my subconscious says “hey, what would happen if I did THIS?” Or even “you always do that lick! Do this other weird thing instead!” Its a bit scary but very entertaining for me when that happens.

 

[kesslari]

Thanks! Actually, this brings up another question I have. If you're moving from say the I chord up to a V chord, do you shift the whole "box" up two frets so that the root is now on the V, which makes playing a pattern easier, or do you try to stay in the original box with the root on the I and choose different notes to play a V chord (which seems pretty complicated to me).

mj

Again... it depends.
Where (on the neck) you play will change the tone of the note, for example. And it changes your options for the "next stop".
There's efficiency in staying in one position. There's a different kind of efficiency in playing the same pattern in a different position.
Getting comfortable with both options expands your horizons.

I'll guess that your current positions involve having either your index or second finger on the root of the chord. I'd also suggest that you work on starting with your little (pinky) finger on the root.
And learning, both across and up and down the neck, how these various patterns and sounds fit together.
It's potentially a lifetime of learning. I'm still working at it.

 

[mjnyc]

Really appreciate all input.

Kesslari, absolutely correct I have my index or second finger on the root. Will ultimately work on other positions.

Smeet, I think I understand your points. I've learned a couple of languages due to living in other countries and have always had a much easier time picking up languages by ear than following grammatical rules, and the difficulties I had translating grammar to speech are sort of like the same problems I have translating written notes to played music. I think brains are wired differently and one size doesn't fit all. But not being able to read music efficiently has a component of laziness, too, I admit.

 

[Matty Koff]

Watching Victor Wooten DVD's lately and reading his book... and he says never give up the groove to find a note.

I personally haven't mastered this concept yet.. but he demonstrates making "the wrong notes sound right" by playing out of key, but in time, and to the groove, and then playing the "right notes" but out of the groove. The wrong notes sounded better.
Then he goes on to make a nifty sounding jam out of the chromatic scale.

Think about the drum beat during improvisation. If you land on a wrong note, your a half step away from being in key. If you've practiced your theory you'll be able to hear what interval you're playing and that should tell you the root.

I'll let you know if I can ever actually put this into practice lol.

Not to discount anybody else's responses.. but it's food for thought when it comes to improv.

 

[singlemalt]

So, I’m the only guy just watching the dancers?

 

[mjnyc]

Watching Victor Wooten DVD's lately and reading his book... and he says never give up the groove to find a note.

I personally haven't mastered this concept yet.. but he demonstrates making "the wrong notes sound right" by playing out of key, but in time, and to the groove, and then playing the "right notes" but out of the groove. The wrong notes sounded better.

Now that's encouraging!!!

mj

 

[Wasnex]

Hello. New to this forum. Retired, now with some free time, took up guitar about 2 years ago, now bass guitar for past few months. Not quite sure how to phrase my question, but let me try.

I'm now familiar with the notes on the E and A strings, and also have a fair grasp of the pattern of scale degrees surrounding a given root note. So if I play a G root, I can visualize where the 3, 5, 6 flat 7 and all of them are relative to the root.

When playing a song, I either know or can read from a chart the chord progressions. When playing along with those chords, I basically decide on where the root will be on the fretboard and then can choose other notes to play based on the chord tones (so if it's a dominant 7, I know R 3 5 flat7) or else on the appropriate scale (mixolydian in this case), possibly tossing in some chromatic notes.

But it seems to me there are several possible "mental" approaches to doing this:

1. As above, find the root, have the note degree patterns in mind and aim for the appropriate notes based on the type of chord (using scale degrees).

2. Similar, but for each chord type, assuming a consistent fingering relative to the root, just have in mind a pattern (muscle memory) for the chord tones and scale, without necessarily going through the intermediate step of thinking of the scale degree.

3. After having played for a long time, become aware of what each fretted note, relative to the root, sounds like and be able to choose a note based on what sounds good in your head and know where it is. This seems pretty advanced and maybe impossible for me, but wondering...

4. Any other systems?

Finally, all of this assumes staying around one area of the fretboard based on the root. When moving elsewhere, does one do the same thing but base it on a different root location or keep things relative to the original root location?

I guess this is a long-winded way of asking: what goes through your head when you play?

Sorry for lengthy post.

mj

My mind generally shifts between several mental processes while I play the bass. The processes I use depend on if I am playing by ear, reading written notes, or interpreting chord notation.

I might think about the key center, the chords tones, or altered chord extensions. I might also use my ears or box shapes that are visualized on the fretboard.

I might think about the tempo and amount of rhythmic tension I am creating with the drummer, or how I am shaping the notes.

If I really put my mind to it, there are probably lot's of other things I think of as well.

All of these thought processes are learned separately but a master musician sees how the interlock. I am not all the way there, so I won't claim to be a master, but I definitely have a strong awareness of the connections--and some of the connections are very apparent.

It would be disingenuous if I did not confess that there are many connections that I should have a much better grasp of. I think some of these holes in my capabilities are due to my natural aptitudes and some are due to the job requirements I had. In other words, if if my job required the skill, I would have done more to develop it, regardless of whether I had a natural aptitude.

My personal belief is that learning theory and putting significant effort into ear training are really foundational things that every musician should do. But that is IMHO so YMMV. There are select musicians that have reason way above my level of performance, and I am sure that would have suggestions for me as well. Suggestions that I am unable, or perhaps unwilling to fulfill. Each of us must pave our own path, and take responsibility for the outcome.

 

[gmarcus]

Make all of your notes groove. Spaces are good. Where the note starts and ends is important. Both need to fit the groove of the song. Then choose some tasty notes to put in those spaces.

 

[SLPimp]

This guy taught me everything I know.