Mesa Boogie Subway D800+ Is it LOUD?

[bucephylus]

Just one other thought regarding high volume gigs.

First, the recent offerings in the Class D market using the 700ACS output module are the first micros which really don't have design compromises for bass amplification. That module is what was really wanted. I gigged a Shuttle 9.0 for several years, first on a Berg NV610; and that rig was plenty loud for most gigs. Andy ( @agedhorse ) did a very nice job on the design workarounds with the modules then available. But, now we have amps like the D800 using better components; so, there's that. They really are amazing.

That said, if you are gigging at high volume, there is no denying the advantage that additional power can give you. It's kind of like driving down the freeway at 80 mph with the engine running at 2200 rpm vs 4000 rpm. Sure, the portable micros can do it. But, power amps that are also using bigger Class D components (so still light) are relatively cheap on a dollar per watt basis. If you really like the D800 preamp then get yourself something like a Crest ProLite 3.0 to drive a couple of big cabs for the big gigs. The ProLite is what, $475 or something? The big advantage there is that your power section is just idling along at volume. Well, actually, its on full; but you've got tons of head space just the same.

Anyway, just another not totally expensive option to consider. The micros are definitely very capable. But, there are options as well just outside that box.

 

[Munjibunga]

Im weary of the light-weight amps ...

Are you tired (weary) of them or skeptical (wary) of them?

 

[Jason Z Chicago]

Are you tired (weary) of them or skeptical (wary) of them?

Ha, thanks for the correction Ive misused that word so many times that Im honestly a little embarassed!

I was wary. I am no longer wary. I am now convinced of how great they are.

I still have my friends who think all solid state, especially Class D, are total crap. These are the guys who dont do any research and just regurgitate every norm they've heard their peers repeat in the past. They never blind demo anything, they never want to be the one to stand out and go against the often repeated tropes. Its ok. They can carry their amp and I will carry mine. They can sound the way they do and I will sound the way I do.

 

[Jason Z Chicago]

Class D 700ACS output module .

Hey bucephylus, I googled around and I couldnt find anything I understood about this type of output module. Would you mind unpacking this a little?

What is beneficial about 700ACS?
What is the difference between units that use 700ACS and others?
Is this a new normal for Class D?

Kinda wondering if it makes a Class D amp superior to other Class D models in some way.

 

[bucephylus]

Hey bucephylus, I googled around and I couldnt find anything I understood about this type of output module. Would you mind unpacking this a little?

What is beneficial about 700ACS?
What is the difference between units that use 700ACS and others?
Is this a new normal for Class D?

Kinda wondering if it makes a Class D amp superior to other Class D models in some way.

Thanks for asking, as you caused me to go actually look at the products. And, it seems my terminology was a little off. Don't remember where I got that; perhaps, parroting some other post on a different thread? Anyhow, mea culpa.

ICEPower, a subsidiary of Bang and Olufsen, is one of, if not the main provider of the OEM SMPS output modules used in many of the Class D micros. There are others, and good ones; but the ICEPower modules are to our Class D micro amps what the Cosworth V8 was to F1 racing back in the 70's and 80's.

Here is the page for one of the recent generation of modules, which includes the 700AS1/2:
Invalid Link Removed

I believe this is the module I incorrectly identified as "ACS." I could still be wrong here; but I believe this is the module in the D800, the Magellan, and the B|Amp; among others.

These modules were more specifically designed with musical instrument amplification as one of the design goals. There are several characteristics, minimum load etc, that are particularly suitable; and one of the big advantages not listed is that heat management is mostly not an issue.

Previous gen micro amps used these modules:
Invalid Link Removed

I believe the 250ASX2 is/was used in the Aguilar TH500 and the Demeter VTBP and Minnie amps, as examples. My understanding was that bass amp design with these modules required some workarounds with heat management.

Then again, I may still have misidentified which modules are which. Just doing my best. They are OEM units; so, us users only get the second hand scuttlebutt. I am quite certain, however, that the latest generation modules being used have major advantages over the previous modules, in that the use for musical instrument amplification is designed into the topology. Which was my main point, irrespective of my misinformation on the module identification. Apologies for unintentional misinformation.

 

[J Gold]

So here's the question.. what cabinet will allow us to get the most clean volume out of this head?
I'm now thinking the PH1000 may be what I want, although I'm gassing for an avatar 412 too...

 

[Amajew]

So here's the question.. what cabinet will allow us to get the most clean volume out of this head?
I'm now thinking the PH1000 may be what I want, although I'm gassing for an avatar 412 too...

first question... you want to be transporting that kinda weight???

clean volume is subjective based on the user. Everything you put in your signal chain will affect your tone. I know for certain a pair of GK neo 212's are plenty loud for anything you would need outside an arena.

What kind of situations will you be mainly playing? Or what are your goals as far as volume requirements?

The defined "supercabs" are really amazing. After playing through a Greenboy F212 IMO its a cut above a lot of the commercial offerings for sound dispersion and tone. But you have to like that type of tone. There are so many choices to pick from... best bet is to try and play through some cabs that interest you but you may have to go the route of (like I am) and choosing a cabinet that you feel will give you what you're looking for based on opinions of others as well as speaking directly to the cabinet makers themselves... there are a handful of them that are really great to talk directly to, pretty impressive actually.

I played a PH1000 through a BigBlock 750 and I really didn't care for it... it just seemed too much of everything and not in a good way... If I was 20-30 ft from the cabinet, directly in line with it maybe it would sound good to me but probably not off axis from it. That's another thing with the supercabs from Audiokinesis, Greenboy, Mike Arnopol, Barefaced etc... they've been designed to allow you to hear yourself off axis. I know my GK cabs sound pretty good right in front of them but move a foot or two off axis and that depth turns to thin and not being able to hear myself in a mix.

Regarding the avatar... that's a better bang for your buck with the driver choices as some of them are similar to what the "super cabs" use but the only difference is cabinet design... avatar has one cabinet design for multiple driver options.... the supercabs have drivers mainly designed for the specific cabinet design.... I spoke at length with Mike Arnopol and his drivers are designed for his cabinet designs... they are no off the shelf units.... same goes for Alex and his speakers.... Mike informed me they both use Emminence and work directly with their engineers for long periods of time developing (perfecting) the actual speaker design so it works with the actual specs of the cabinet, vs against it.

Just some food for thought.... I've been researching for months myself after spending a lot of money on two modular cabinet stacks.... do they sound good... yep... both of them have their own flavor of tone but for me I wasn't hearing myself well when moving around the band room or the stage. These supercabs also hit lower, clearer and more powerful than a lot of commercial cabs....

 

[jnewmark]

Just one other thought regarding high volume gigs.

First, the recent offerings in the Class D market using the 700ACS output module are the first micros which really don't have design compromises for bass amplification. That module is what was really wanted. I gigged a Shuttle 9.0 for several years, first on a Berg NV610; and that rig was plenty loud for most gigs. Andy ( @agedhorse ) did a very nice job on the design workarounds with the modules then available. But, now we have amps like the D800 using better components; so, there's that. They really are amazing.

That said, if you are gigging at high volume, there is no denying the advantage that additional power can give you. It's kind of like driving down the freeway at 80 mph with the engine running at 2200 rpm vs 4000 rpm. Sure, the portable micros can do it. But, power amps that are also using bigger Class D components (so still light) are relatively cheap on a dollar per watt basis. If you really like the D800 preamp then get yourself something like a Crest ProLite 3.0 to drive a couple of big cabs for the big gigs. The ProLite is what, $475 or something? The big advantage there is that your power section is just idling along at volume. Well, actually, its on full; but you've got tons of head space just the same.

Anyway, just another not totally expensive option to consider. The micros are definitely very capable. But, there are options as well just outside that box.

Although I have done this numerous times with different preamps, amp preamps, and power amps, it is a bit of a hit and miss, due to the output specs of any particular preamp, whether it is stand alone, or coming from the effects loop of a bass amp, matching up with the input sensitivity of any particular power amp. they need to be within close range of each other for the preamp to drive the power amp effectively. Some power amps have variable input sensitivity controls, but a lot don't. In my experience, it's better off to get a stand alone bass preamp that can drive the power amp of your choice. Not saying a bass amp's preamp won't do the job, but the times I tried it , I was not so satisfied.

 

[agedhorse]

So here's the question.. what cabinet will allow us to get the most clean volume out of this head?
I'm now thinking the PH1000 may be what I want, although I'm gassing for an avatar 412 too...

I would suggest listening to the matching Subway cabinets, you can use 1, 2, 3, or 4 depending on the needs of your specific gig. They are a good blend of sensitivity, LF extension and mechanical power handling. There are other good choices as well.

 

[Jason Z Chicago]

Invalid Link Removed

Thanks for the info! @agedhorse - can you confirm the use of these power sections in any amps you've worked on? No biggie if you cant reveal info like that, just wondering.

Currently drooling over ICEpower1200AS2. Teaching myself how to build transistor based preamps at the moment. Would love to incorporate this into one of my builds!

 

[bucephylus]

Thanks for the info! @agedhorse - can you confirm the use of these power sections in any amps you've worked on? No biggie if you cant reveal info like that, just wondering.

Currently drooling over ICEpower1200AS2. Teaching myself how to build transistor based preamps at the moment. Would love to incorporate this into one of my builds!

You and quite a few other TB'er DIY'ers!!

Unfortunately, they are only available in fairly large OEM lot sizes.

 

[agedhorse]

I've worked extensively with IcePower technology for close to 15 years, so all the amps I design using their platform benefit from a lot of early hard earned experience (mostly in the pro market). IMO, it's the best platform out there when you consider everything as a whole. Performance, noise floor, power, EMC, and especially reliability.

 

[dukeorock]

I have an MB800 and a D800, among other amps. I perceived the MB800 as 'louder' too, but the D800 has been my daily driver for the better part of the last 18 months or more. Beautiful sounding amp! Occasionally my M9 get the call as well.

 

[Dean Entwistle]

Had a D800 going through a Markbass 210 and 115...it NEVER got loud enough and always clipped. Promptly traded it for a second GK MB Fusion 800 which is ridiculously loud.

I just purchased a new Subway 800 with matching 1 15 cab. I tried it out with a Gibson Explorer Bass first with a 1 12 then the 1 15. The 12 fluttered on the lows of the Gibson bass. The 15 had excellent signal response at all volume levels. The 2 10 worked but lacked the punch.

 

[petermca17]

I have a Subway D-800 and a Prodigy Four:88 yet I actually use the D-800 way more often than I use the Prodigy even though the Prodigy has a sweeter tone - the Subway also has a beautiful deep and full musical tone and it weighs only 5 lbs. I usually play through either a 2x12 Trace cab or a 4x6 MB NY Cab. Great tone and plenty loud with a single cab in the bands that I play in - both of which are fast hard rock 3 piece units with a very heavy hitting drummer and very loud guitarists. I'm using Sadowsky Jazz Will Lee basses with the pre-amp engaged and the mid boost enabled.

 

[Jeff Bonny]

I spent a fair bit of the 80's and 90's playing in some loud rock bands with mostly 800RB's into 1 or 2x15's and occasionally a 4x10 or 8x10. I can't help rolling my eyes when people ask if an 800w amp is going to be loud enough. With well chosen cabs a D800 (which I used for a few months) will be loud enough to play any gig a person who's asking this question on the interwebs will probably ever do.

 

[Rob Rogers]

Yes,its loud. I have both the D-800+ Head and the Mesa 8x10" cab. IT KICKS A**
Played an amphitheater in Boca Raton. Going through the massive pa and sound guy asked me to turn down.
That was a first.

 

[Munjibunga]

couple choices: 4x12 (custom made bass cab with eminence BP122's), 1x18 (old PA sub with a peavy scorpion in it)

The limiting factor is your cabs. With the right cabs the D800+ will be plenty loud for practically any application.

 

[Amajew]

Anybody use this to play very heavy/loud music?

So far I havent heard a bad thing about the D800 and Im about to pull the trigger. Im concerned about its ability to be loud as I need it to be.

Im weary of the light-weight amps for perhaps silly reasons. It just seems like something this light wont push decibels like I would want it to. I would be competing with two fully cranked half stacks and a drummer who hits like a beast.

I know I could just return it if it doesnt work out. I am just looking to the community for reassurance. If you know there is a deficit with this head getting loud as fxxk, please share.

Thanks!!!

Grab a couple of revsound 215T cabinets. Run it at 2 ohms and destroy two loud guitarists that think they need 120 watt tube heads and 412 cabinets.

My one 215T with the d800 is plenty loud against two loud guitarists and I had a fair amount of headroom leftover.

 

[Jason Z Chicago]

Grab a couple of revsound 215T cabinets. Run it at 2 ohms and destroy two loud guitarists that think they need 120 watt tube heads and 412 cabinets.

My one 215T with the d800 is plenty loud against two loud guitarists and I had a fair amount of headroom leftover.

Those cabs are great!

I recently acquired a Barefaced Eight10 and it is literally all the cab I could ever need (and only weighs like 100lbs).

Im using a preamp I made myself (Traynor TS-120B clone) and a PA head (Crown XLS2505) and it does the thing perfectly.

If I ever needed a compact head, for sure I would go back to the Subway D800. It was great, for what it was. I cannot say anything bad about it. Im sure it would sound awesome through the 8x10.