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Mesa D180/400 Tube Question

I defer to PBG's knowledge, he's got more technical expertise than most anybody aroound when it comes to tubes.

The only point I'd like to emphasize: while this Mesa may handle a 6550 conversion without any problem, most amps may not. I would hate to see the average Joe buy a set of 6550's to plug in his brand new Spankenjammer amp, thinking he'll get a direct plug-in for his 6L6's that'll give him gobs more power without doing anything else ("bias? they told me this amp don't need no bias").
 
My service information for the D-180/M-180 claims that they put out 180W before clipping, and 200W at 5% THD. You should get a little more from 6550's, I'm guessing about 240W without raising plate voltage. Unfortunately, I don't have a power resistor that can handle this while I measure the output.

Does your D-180 get loud quickly above "7" on the Master?
 
well, i have the master at 10 and volume 2 at around 6-7. as you can imagine, i play in an extremely loud noisy, punk band competing with two guitars and loud drums. i can hang in there okay at this setting but i wouldn't mind a little more clean headroom. i realize there isn't much difference in volume between 180-240 but i think those extra watts will come in handy.
 
BTW, I re-read the initial post. I misunderstood and thought you had a Bass 400, not a D-180. For a D-180, I'm not sure if 6550's would work with its power tranny, BUT a tech could try it without risking the amp. The money it will cost to mod it would get you well on your way to buying another higher powered used amp. The D-180 is somewhat of a rarity. Its most famous (but often overlooked) user was some guy called Cliff Burton. ;)

If you know a good tech you trust, try the mod with him/her, but before you sink several hundred dollars into upgrading the amp, you might want to look into just getting one with more power. SVT's and Bass 400+'s typically run around $800 used.
 
Originally posted by mthoople
I have both a 400 and a D-180. I have new Sovtek 6550WD tubes in the 400. These have a 6L6 size base, allowing the stock clamps to be used. They have plenty of clearance between each other, and clearance to the cover. The D-180 actually has more room under the cover, since the chassis isn't quite as tall.

Originally posted by Psycho Bass Guy
I'd say that since the original 400's had 6550's, the swap ought to be OK. Mesa would NOT have switched to a cheaper power transformer just to accomodate the change to 6L6's; it would have cost far too much to retool.

I also have been reading these Mesa horsepower-junkie threads with great interest too!
I too have a D180 and a Bass400, and owned them both for over 12yrs now...and since I bought both used, of course they had 6L6's in them. Lately is the first I've heard that the Bass400 is originally suppose to have 6550's.

If that is the case, I really don't want to cheat myself any longer of power I sure could use by not having the 'optimal' tubes in the Bass400. But just like Stevekim was asking on his D180, I would like to eventually do 6550's in my D180 too.
The swap in the D180 would seem to me to make sense, because as far as the similarities, my two heads are identical; The chassis are both exactly the same dimentions, and both of mine have the same power tranny. I don't see why not (yes PBG, I read your re-read).
 
As far as older vs. newer 400's, the trannies are the same. I've had one of each, and the only difference is the screen resistors: 2.7K 5W WW in the older, 470 2W CC in the newer. I put 6550WD's in both and sold the older one to a friend. Both seem very "happy" running the 6550 tubes!

For a tech to add a bias pot and change the screen resistors (if you want them changed) should be less than $50, and more like $30. So, you put the original 7581A tubes in your D-180 for $210. Or, put a set of 6550WD's in ($144) and add the bias pot (which you should for the 7581A as well). One other note: have your tech check the caps in the bias supply to make sure they can handle the voltage. My D-180 has 75V caps there (bias voltage should be low -60's for the 6550), but I'd feel better if it had 100V caps.

The "box" in the bottom of my D-180 chassis is not as tall as it is in the 400. The cooling fan in my 400 sits partially in the box, while it is completely outside on the D-180. This gives it an extra 1/2" from the tube sockets to the cover.
 
Caca, do your amps have the same output transformers too?

When you say "the same" do they have the same part number or are they just the same physical size? Transformer core steel comes in standard sizes but the internal construction (magnet wire size,number of turns, physical coil construction, etc. can vary and you'd never know just by looking at it.

Anyone know who supplies (supplied) transformers to Mesa? The date code might give a clue. If you knew who's transformer it is, perhaps a call would reveal needed info like voltage and current ratings of the power transformer as well as plate current and primary winding impedance of the output transformer.

Steve - For the nominal increase in power output, it sounds like a really expensive endeavor...$150 to $200 on power tubes, ??? on mods, etc. Then what happens if you don't even like the way it sounds when you're done?
 
Wow, I wish I understood all this technical jargon! All I know is that I've been using Boogie gear for years and am personal friends with several of the guys at Mesa, and I trust that nobody there is trying to pull the wool over anybody's eyes. From what I understand, tubes and tone are not an exact science, and I guess they are going with works and sounds best to them. Here's what they have to say about it: http://www.mesaboogie.com/US/Smith/biasadjust.html

I would seriously suggest trying a different 6L6 before you go through the trouble of modding your amp out. I changed my Coliseum 300 from STR430's to STR454's, and it made a world of difference in percieved headroom, punch, and low end. Me like!
 
well, unless i can find 6550's that are "plug and play" i don't think i'm going to do it. i really don't want to sink a lot of money into this because, as was mentioned before i can probably get a more powerfull tube amp for less hassle. thanks for the help everyone. i've learned a lot from this thread and i really appreciate it.

steve
 
For the benefit of the readers here, I'll use Randall Smith's own article to show why bias adjustments are necessary:

originally written by Randall Smith

The short answer is that during my 12 years of repairing Fenders, one of the most frequent problems I saw was bias controls that were either set wrong or that had wandered out of adjustment due to vibration.


Vibration and user error is NOT the fault of the circuit. While this may justify making the control more inaccessable, it in no way demostrates a need to do away with it. Yes you can severely damage an amp by improperly setting up its bias; you can also achieve the same result from load mismatches, faulty power, incorrect connections, and dropping it.

As any honest tech will tell you, there's lot's of easy money to be made by sprinkling "holy water" on amplifiers ... uh, what I meant to say is "Your amp needed biasing."


Maybe things are different in California, but it's hard enough to get most people to pay legitimate repair charges even when they are performed for FAR less than they should be.[sarcasm] Sure, there are whole legions of techs who simply steal money from their clients.[/sarcasm] I got OUT of repairs because there is no money in it and I was tired of the hassle of deadbeats. A bias job was charged a bench fee, just like any other service that required my expertise and test equipment.


Now don't be fooled into thinking that tubes "draw" more or less bias, they don't.


This is an outright lie. Not only do the same types of tubes bias to different voltages in a circuit, but the SAME tubes draw different amounts of bias current as they age. Cheap tubes are worse than good ones about it. Nobody's "fooling" anyone. Read the RCA Receiving Tube Manual sometime. It's where Leo Fender got most of his amp designs.


It's a static voltage and regardless of what tube is in the socket -- or even if the tubes aren't plugged in at all, it doesn't change the bias voltage a bit.


Here he backpeddles and tries to specify VOLTAGE as opposed to current, but even this is still wrong.

I (current in amperes)= E (electric potential in voltage)/ R (resistance in ohms)

Measure bias voltage without a tube present vs with one. The draw of the tube WILL lower the voltage because the bias supply attempts to maintain constant current and the impedance of the bias circuit has changed due to the presence of the tube.


So the end of the short answer is this: Since a bias supply needs to put out the right voltage and never vary.


That's a scary thought. How do you account for the differences in tube construction that result in different internal impedances then? Oh yeah, you have to buy HIS tubes, 'cause they're "special." :rolleyes:


Now you might be thinking, "But I thought you just said that tubes don't "draw" bias, therefore they don't effect the bias supply and thus it doesn't need to be adjustable."

And that's right. Tubes don't effect the bias setting, but the bias setting does effect how the tubes work. But HOW it effects the tubes is difficult to measure.


Here, he even admits what I've been asserting! And as far as being "difficult to measure" that's another lie. All you need is an oscilliscope, a voltage meter, and a test tone and you will have quantifiable measurements which show EXACTLY the effects of changing bias current. Matter of fact, that's the proper procedure for SETTING bias!


...There's more, but that should give you a good idea.
 
All this Mesa Boogie talk has me crying. I just got a * DEAD-180* from the ham-handed bastards at UPS!

Luckily it was insured, and is now in the hands of a semi-competent tech. I've been looking for one of these for quite a while, hopefully it will be back sometime next week.

I didn't know Cliff used a D-180 ;)



Back to the Boogie mega-thread...
 
hey slacker,

i'm sorry to hear about your d-180. hope everything works out for you.

i just talked to lord valve at nbs electronics. he was very straightforward and extremely helpful. what he told me was that 6550's would work great in the d180 as long as i got bias adjustment pots put in and used sovtek 6550wd's or similar tubes. he told me that i would do no harm to the power supply or transformer. since the bias adjustment mod isn't too much, and seems to be recommend by every knowledgable tube tech i meet, i think i might go ahead and get this done soon. i'll probably get the 6550's sometime next month. i'll be sure to report back and let everyone know how it works out.

steve
 
I live 1000 miles from Denver and made it a priority to visit LV (aka Fat Willie) while in Denver. Enough tubes in that shop to make anyone tube lover slobber all over themselves.

Good job Steve...I often recommend that people seek out LV...don't know why I didn't think of it this time.

Good luck!!!
 
I just discussed this with Mike Bendonelli at mesa boogie. great guy, full of information and super nice. he told me that changing the tubes to 6550 won't have that big of an effect on volume without major mods to the power supply. you can use 6550's and get a different tonal characteristic from your amp but it won't make a big difference on how loud it'll get. for this reason, i think i will pass on getting the 6550's. i was looking at $200 minimum for new tubes and mods and was hoping i'd get a mini svt for it but it doesn't look like that will be the case. Thanks mike for that dose of reality! :D

steve

ps: if you guys have any questions about mesa amps i suggest you ask for mike. he seems to always answer his phone in person and gives great advice.
 
Originally posted by stevekim
I just discussed this with Mike Bendonelli at mesa boogie. great guy, full of information and super nice. he told me that changing the tubes to 6550 won't have that big of an effect on volume without major mods to the power supply. :D

Which is what I said right at the beginning of the thread :D. The power supply is the ultimate determinant of total output power. Whatever tubes you put in an amp, you'll only get the amount of power the power supply can deliver to them.
 
OK so let's revive a classic.

My D180 just arrived with relatively new JJ 6LG6's.

The preamp tubes are different with one being a noteworthy Amperex and another a Mullard. No way to test them though.

Anybody know what stages each 12AX7 controls?

How about the 12AT7?

Looking forward to turning up the volume on this. Channel 1 sounds warm and fuzzy at low volume.
 
I use to own a mesa boogie bass 400,best sounding bass amp i ever played through,had some tube problems and mesa boogie were of no help,they cater to the pro's of course,sent me tubes that did not fit the clamp downs and they were crappy chineese tubes also,miss the amp's sound but not boogie customer service.