Mesa Subway D-350!

[DJ Bebop]

Sorry this is late from page 7, but...
In regards to the Genzler being made in Taiwan and the question of quality of product and or service because of country of manufacture some talked negatively about.

Remember that Mr. Genzler is the name sake of Genz-Benz and that Mr. Agedhorse worked for him making amps like the still loved Streamliner and Shuttle series.
Those amps were made in Taiwan back then and have a good reputation of quality. And service? Mr. Agedhorse and Mr. Genzler were on TalkBass back then helping out and if you were to call you would get Mr. Genzler on the phone.

Now with the company being called Genzler, as in the past if you call or email, you will get Mr. Genzler to answer you and he is still on TalkBass daily to respond to questions or concerns. And with the new amps he went even deeper into making them more reliable than ever.

Country of origin means nothing, it is the people running it that means something.

Agreed
As long as a company backs up its products, everything is fine no matter where it's made. OTOH if they don't back up its products the same thing, it doesn't make any difference where it's made. The countries of design origin that I mentioned in my post you quoted, not Genzler, have a reputation of making products that are either throwaways or hard to find support facilities that the company authorizes. You have to basically send them back to Italy, rather than get someone cool on the phone that will help you.

 

[agedhorse]

Sorry this is late from page 7, but...
In regards to the Genzler being made in Taiwan and the question of quality of product and or service because of country of manufacture some talked negatively about.

Remember that Mr. Genzler is the name sake of Genz-Benz and that Mr. Agedhorse worked for him making amps like the still loved Streamliner and Shuttle series.
Those amps were made in Taiwan back then and have a good reputation of quality. And service? Mr. Agedhorse and Mr. Genzler were on TalkBass back then helping out and if you were to call you would get Mr. Genzler on the phone.

Now with the company being called Genzler, as in the past if you call or email, you will get Mr. Genzler to answer you and he is still on TalkBass daily to respond to questions or concerns. And with the new amps he went even deeper into making them more reliable than ever.

Country of origin means nothing, it is the people running it that means something.

There are both excellent and poor contract manufacturers in every country, including the US. Cost of manufactur is proportional to quality.

My experience with many years working with Jeff is that he will go out of his way to deliver the best quality possible. It's something that we both agreed will always. I think the quality of everything Jeff has done speaks for itself.

It a not that people doubt the quality of the products. I simply won't buy one for economic and as some would say political reasons. Obviously labor costs were a factor, and I think we're being dismissive if we don't admit to as much. The genzler amps are quite good, but at that price point others are manufacturing domestically.

If mesa were to move production overseas I would not buy those products.

Everyone can decide for themselves and vote with their wallets.

My experience is that you get what you pay for. Some of the best contract manufacturers in the world are located in Taiwan, they are no less expensive than similar quality elsewhere in the world (including the US).

Making a purchasing decision based on country of manufacturer is obviously a personal choice. Just be sure that you understand the facts behind where it's built and who stands behind it.

 

[Yogi Bear]

I would consider this to be a serious amp for any player. I really can't imagine any Mesa gear as beginner gear, or a scenario where 350 watts wouldn't work. Generally anything these days outside small clubs will have FOH support anyway. Heck, I used to gig a Peavey TKO 75 back in the day.

 

[agedhorse]

Remember that the Walkabout was "only" 300 watts at 4 ohms

 

[Playbyear]

There are both excellent and poor contract manufacturers in every country, including the US. Cost of manufactur is proportional to quality.

My experience with many years working with Jeff is that he will go out of his way to deliver the best quality possible. It's something that we both agreed will always. I think the quality of everything Jeff has done speaks for itself.



My experience is that you get what you pay for. Some of the best contract manufacturers in the world are located in Taiwan, they are no less expensive than similar quality elsewhere in the world (including the US).

Making a purchasing decision based on country of manufacturer is obviously a personal choice. Just be sure that you understand the facts behind where it's built and who stands behind it.

Taiwan moved away from low end manufacturing decades ago. In the seventies and into the eighties they made all kinds of cheap low end products, much of it imported into the USA. When China became the major player for cheap goods, they couldn’t compete on the low end and moved into much better manufacturing. One example is their well regarded precision Machining equipment.

 

[wizard65]

It a not that people doubt the quality of the products. I simply won't buy one for economic and as some would say political reasons. Obviously labor costs were a factor, and I think we're being dismissive if we don't admit to as much. The genzler amps are quite good, but at that price point others are manufacturing domestically.

If mesa were to move production overseas I would not buy those products.

Everyone can decide for themselves and vote with their wallets.

Unfortunately that kind of stance won’t help the low wage workers. For most of them it’s a low wage or no wage, and boycotting for political reasons will leave them without a job.

 

[Craig22221]

Your target market is people buying the Genzler 350 or Tone hammer 350. These two have established the 350 market.

your target 350 customer (in my opinion):
1. older guys that never had combo amps (and still won't) but don't need the 800+ watt heads anymore. (And appreciate a smaller and lighter size). Smaller, simpler quality gear people.
2. the back up amp in the bag (just in case) crowd. A quality, small back up amp that fits in the gig bag.
3. A newer player with cash for gear, doesn't want or need a 800+ watt amp, likes the small form factor and does not want a combo. Spending $800-$1,400 for a combo is a tough sell.

If Mesa offered a smaller 350 head at a decent size and price (Genzler 350 $$), you would have my order. However, if it's within a $100 or so of a subway D800, i'll take the D800.

 

[pigpen1]

Unfortunately that kind of stance won’t help the low wage workers. For most of them it’s a low wage or no wage, and boycotting for political reasons will leave them without a job.

Low wage workers where? I don't follow the logic. If I don't but an amp because its made outside the location I prefer it to be made, how does that harm low wage workers where I do prefer the amp to be made? It would signal to the amp maker what my consumer preferences are and incentivize them to meet my preferences, if enough consumers feel the same way. So in that sense the "boycott" would be working. My stance is to support my local economy not exert upward wage pressure in labor markets in far away places.

 

[pigpen1]

There are both excellent and poor contract manufacturers in every country, including the US. Cost of manufactur is proportional to quality.

My experience with many years working with Jeff is that he will go out of his way to deliver the best quality possible. It's something that we both agreed will always. I think the quality of everything Jeff has done speaks for itself.



My experience is that you get what you pay for. Some of the best contract manufacturers in the world are located in Taiwan, they are no less expensive than similar quality elsewhere in the world (including the US).

Making a purchasing decision based on country of manufacturer is obviously a personal choice. Just be sure that you understand the facts behind where it's built and who stands behind it.

Sure and I've stated my preferences pretty clearly. I know that Genzler makes quality gear and I was close to buying a Magellan 800 at one point. I never assumed differently. It's not about quality. There's tons of other gear I've wanted but not bought for the same reasons.

Knowing the facts of this situation makes me even less likely to buy that gear because it means they could've done what I prefer at the same price point but didn't.

Anyway probably should get back on topic.

 

[pigpen1]

Your target market is people buying the Genzler 350 or Tone hammer 350. These two have established the 350 market.

your target 350 customer (in my opinion):
1. older guys that never had combo amps (and still won't) but don't need the 800+ watt heads anymore. (And appreciate a smaller and lighter size). Smaller, simpler quality gear people.
2. the back up amp in the bag (just in case) crowd. A quality, small back up amp that fits in the gig bag.
3. A newer player with cash for gear, doesn't want or need a 800+ watt amp, likes the small form factor and does not want a combo. Spending $800-$1,400 for a combo is a tough sell.

If Mesa offered a smaller 350 head at a decent size and price (Genzler 350 $$), you would have my order. However, if it's within a $100 or so of a subway D800, i'll take the D800.

I would call it the "Premium Brand" small amp market.

 

[Mushroo]

Mesa D-350 looks like a "win" in my opinion!

If you're asking my opinion "what should our top design priorities be?" then my vote is for tone and reliability. The target market is people who want the best possible quality amp, but don't need a full 800w.

Please don't drastically cut corners to make the D-350 "tiny" or "cheap" because (if you ask me) the D-800 is already "compact" and "a good value" as it now stands. Of course I imagine the D-350 will be slightly smaller and less expensive than the D-800, but I'm not expecting it to be half the size or half the price. It should be an evolution, not a revolution, of the existing Subway lineup.

An example what NOT to do is the Trace ELF. Don't use lightweight construction, and omit important features (like Speakons for example), for the bragging rights of being pocket-sized. Of course the ELF has its niche, but is kind of the opposite what I expect, in terms of design goals, from Mesa Boogie.

 

[bdplaid]

Country of origin means nothing,

Patently untrue. There are any number of reasons why it is so. I can show you the Chinese crap I have that's just awful. That statement would lead one to believe than an Ampeg or Brubaker made in China is equivalent to it's USA counterpart. I have two Markbass amps, one from Italy and the other from Indonesia. Guess which one is totally problematic, despite being a decade younger.

 

[staccatogrowl]

(paraphrased) In regards to Genzler being made in Taiwan and the question of product quality due to country of manufacture. . Remember that Jeff Genzler was also a principal of Genz-Benz, along with colleague Agedhorse, producing amps like the beloved and pioneering Streamliner and Shuttle series. Those amps were made in Taiwan. .

I recall that Genz Benz circuit boards were made in Taiwan at that time because they offered the best manufacturing quality in the world. Price was secondary.

Excellent design and manufacturing quality are key attributes of reliability and serviceabilty. The result of fewer failures means less need for repairs. Combine that with the customer service devotion of Genz Benz, Genzler, and Mesa, and find a recipe for customer satsfaction, loyalty, and company success.

 

[bdplaid]

Unfortunately that kind of stance won’t help the low wage workers. For most of them it’s a low wage or no wage, and boycotting for political reasons will leave them without a job.

I'm more concerned with those in this country than those in others. This doesn't begin to talk about any theft of IP much less human rights.

 

[bdplaid]

Back into the Baby Subway, one design element I'd like to see is a tilt-back front face. I love it on the Quilter BB800.

 

[JW56789]

Random thoughts:

'Offshore' Mesa is a non-starter, though I think that's a given.

The devil is in the details: Enough D800-derived features at enough of a price difference. Hell of a balancing act.

A good (and probably first) experience at that price point could pave the way to keep them when they spend more.

I think if you want to be a big-er player in bass amps, they can't all be big power, big money rigs. Can't Ampeg with only SVT's and V4B's. A spread (without THAT many choices ala Ampeg) gives more people a chance to buy in, but to me too many choices muddies the water. At the end of GenzBenz (and they're hardly alone at it), there were too many choices that I'm sure insured some of them would never sell in any real numbers. To me, right now, the 800+ and the WD make the regular 800 redundant. '86 the 800 and slot the 350 in its place. Three very distinct choices and you free up the 800's production budget to fund the 350.

The 350 and the single driver bins (one with a pair of Subway 112's seems particularly enticing . . .) would be very compelling. I think the 350 at a price point and power point south of the 800's would suit me and more than a few others just fine. Tag the line with a no-holds barred monster on the other side of 1000 watts and that's a lineup that could be king of the hill.

I'm still a fan of combos, but I don't really know if those are not the proposition they once were in this new age of cigar box-sixed amps and lightweight bins. You know I've always hoped for a latter day Redhead-style amp ( . . . my pie in the sky 'bass twin reverb' or a bass equivalent of a Mark Boogie with a single 12 and matching extension . . . . ) with today's ICE and neodymium construction, but I can't really say what that market is any more.

Andy, I can't tell how much it means to us that you're willing to sift through our ideas. Thanks !

 

[DJ Bebop]

The 350 and the single driver bins (one with a pair of Subway 112's seems particularly enticing . . .) would be very compelling. I think the 350 at a price point and power point south of the 800's would suit me and more than a few others just fine. Tag the line with a no-holds barred monster on the other side of 1000 watts and that's a lineup that could be king of the hill.

I'm still a fan of combos, but I don't really know if those are not the proposition they once were in this new age of cigar box-sixed amps and lightweight bins. You know I've always hoped for a latter day Redhead-style amp ( . . . my pie in the sky 'bass twin reverb' or a bass equivalent of a Mark Boogie with a single 12 and matching extension . . . . ) with today's ICE and neodymium construction, but I can't really say what that market is any more.

Andy, I can't tell how much it means to us that you're willing to sift through our ideas. Thanks !

I'd love a smaller lighter, lower wattage Mesa head with less of the twiddly bits to use when I'm out
in the garden playing music and having tea with Rupert.
Paul

 

[Novarocker]

I don't think the M3 or M6 (combos) sold well. I'd be surprised if there were over 50 of each produced. A walkabout v2.0 would be cool.

Really? Huh, I picked up one of those 4ohm 212 cabs for a steal. Empty amp rack though, but worth every penny. So glad that a Subway 212 was released, excited to try one out.



@agedhorse

Not to go way off topic, but one of the speakers/drivers recently failed in that carbine 4ohm 212 cab. On the Mesa Boogie store there's only 4 & 16ohm options for the powerhouse 12's. Would it still be safe to just use the 8ohm Scout Neo 12? The power handling is the same, but I don't know much about speaker swapping/mixing. Is the voicing much different, not that it would be a big deal?

 

[agedhorse]

The scout driver is quite different. Give customer service a call and see what options there are. Because some drivers are no longer available, you may need to replace both drivers. I'm pretty sure the Subway 12" driver will be ok in that cabinet, that's an 8 ohm driver.

 

[bass4more]

I see that this prototype is posted for sale on the SF Bay Area craigslist.