Mesa Subway D-350!

[Drop1]

While you may think you know more about amplification than the average player, you appear to know less about human nature based on this statement. And yes, your comment comes off as snide and dismissive of the bass players commenting in this thread.

Many speakers get damaged by large amps, primarily because the player doesn't recognize when the speaker is being overdriven, and also from accidents (something becoming partially unplugged, incorrectly set control or switch that got moved accidentally), and from lapses in restraint and good judgement. A more appropriately sized amp for the speakers being used greatly reduces this risk of damage.

My comment was pretentious and I apologize to everyone.
I realized after it posting. I stayed away from this thread for a couple of days because I didn't want to read the responses. I thought they'd be much worse honestly, apparently this place is pretty civilized.

I do realize players can get rather aggressive with the volume knob and accidents can happen.
I also know that some like the sound of an amp being over driven. I'm personally not a fan a pushing towards the limits of class d amplification. . I like head room and a good bit of it. I can't stand the sound of class d giving up. Some Amps can sound lovely when pushed , but others I'd rather get that from a pre and just keep the amps volume knob under control.
I also realize that hearing distortion in the lower registers is not easy for some. We can tolerate a lot more distortion down low. This is often how people blow subs. They just can't hear when the speaker is saying "stop". It's a very VERY common problem in other fields.
Add in pre amps with character or effects like distortion, saturation or overdrive and I can see where realizing the amp is pushing too hard can be problematic.
Not to mention plugging into or unplugging from a hot amp can wreck a driver. More so with smaller drivers (smaller coils) but no driver is immune if enough power is being applied.

Its just always been my preference to have more than I need. More than I could ever need really. Gives good head room, keeps the noise floor down and is future proof (having enough power to use any cab or cabs you'd like down the road.) Making more powerful amps a better investment (imo).
That being said, 350w is still quite substantial. The difference in output between 350w and 800w is rather minimal. The difference looks substantial on paper but is small enough that some may barely be able to tell the difference . It's just a few db difference coming out the cab, but you already know that.

 

[DJ Bebop]

My comment was pretentious and I apologize to everyone.
I realized after it posting. I stayed away from this thread for a couple of days because I didn't want to read the responses. I thought they'd be much worse honestly, apparently this place is pretty civilized.

I do realize players can get rather aggressive with the volume knob and accidents can happen.
I also know that some like the sound of an amp being over driven. I'm personally not a fan a pushing towards the limits of class d amplification. . I like head room and a good bit of it. I can't stand the sound of class d giving up. Some Amps can sound lovely when pushed , but others I'd rather get that from a pre and just keep the amps volume knob under control.
I also realize that hearing distortion in the lower registers is not easy for some. We can tolerate a lot more distortion down low. This is often how people blow subs. They just can't hear when the speaker is saying "stop". It's a very VERY common problem in other fields.
Add in pre amps with character or effects like distortion, saturation or overdrive and I can see where realizing the amp is pushing too hard can be problematic.
Not to mention plugging into or unplugging from a hot amp can wreck a driver. More so with smaller drivers (smaller coils) but no driver is immune if enough power is being applied.

Its just always been my preference to have more than I need. More than I could ever need really. Gives good head room, keeps the noise floor down and is future proof (having enough power to use any cab or cabs you'd like down the road.) Making more powerful amps a better investment (imo).
That being said, 350w is still quite substantial. The difference in output between 350w and 800w is rather minimal. The difference looks substantial on paper but is small enough that some may barely be able to tell the difference . It's just a few db difference coming out the cab, but you already know that.

I made a comment about using older lower-watt cabinets with the D350.

My observation was, I have an old Eden 200-watt 1x10. I do use it, very carefully, with my WD set to run at 300 watts for rehearsals and small acoustic things.

Again very carefully but I don't fool myself into thinking by turning down the volume I'm turning down the watts. The D350 would be a safer amp for this. True the one 8 ohm cabinet won't be producing the whole 350 watts, 175 instead but I could add a second 8 ohm cabinet and get the whole 350 watts split between the two cabinets and not damage anything yet getting good gigging volume out of both combinations.

 

[Drop1]

While you may think you know more about amplification than the average player, you appear to know less about human nature based on this statement. And yes, your comment comes off as snide and dismissive of the bass players commenting in this thread.

Many speakers get damaged by large amps, primarily because the player doesn't recognize when the speaker is being overdriven, and also from accidents (something becoming partially unplugged, incorrectly set control or switch that got moved accidentally), and from lapses in restraint and good judgement. A more appropriately sized amp for the speakers being used greatly reduces this risk of damage.

I'd also like to add, that while my post was pretentious, i seriously doubt that many here nerd out on amps the way I do. There really isn't a need to with instrument Amps. You like the way they sound or you don't.
I doubt the "average" user here is clamping amps or running frequency and distortion analysis.
I do it because it's almost habit at this point. (and fun).
I begin to see patterns. I can begin to see what qualities I find pleasing, while also finding things I don't like. (Certian order harmonic distortions I can tolerate on some amps and not so much on others. I dont find odd order distortion is always the enemy with a bass amp, depending on the amps overall character)
I tend towards clean amps though as I find them predictable. I can always add flavor later, but I can't uncook an amps sound (not completely anyway).
Doing these things let's me know (within a very small margin) how much power I'm using and how much distortion the amp itself is producing at a given volume level. This tells me what I can get away with with a specific cab. I really like the use of a resistance swtich on some (all?) of the mesa amps. That's an attractive feature. Also falls into that "future proof" category I mentioned in my last post.
I've taken this thread off the rails. Putting my $00.2 where it doesn't belong again. I'll stop.

 

[MarshallAC50Stack]

I'd also like to add, that while my post was pretentious, i seriously doubt that many here nerd out on amps the way I do. There really isn't a need to with instrument Amps. You like the way they sound or you don't.
I doubt the "average" user here is clamping amps or running frequency and distortion analysis.
I do it because it's almost habit at this point. (and fun).
I begin to see patterns. I can begin to see what qualities I find pleasing, while also finding things I don't like. (Certian order harmonic distortions I can tolerate on some amps and not so much on others. I dont find odd order distortion is always the enemy with a bass amp, depending on the amps overall character)
I tend towards clean amps though as I find them predictable. I can always add flavor later, but I can't uncook an amps sound (not completely anyway).
Doing these things let's me know (within a very small margin) how much power I'm using and how much distortion the amp itself is producing at a given volume level. This tells me what I can get away with with a specific cab. I really like the use of a resistance swtich on some (all?) of the mesa amps. That's an attractive feature. Also falls into that "future proof" category I mentioned in my last post.
I've taken this thread off the rails. Putting my $00.2 where it doesn't belong again. I'll stop.

I think you’re underestimating the crowd here again. If weren’t nerds we wouldn’t be here reading your thoughts.

 

[Chuck M]

I have been using high powered amps into cabs rated at less watts for a long time and have only had one speaker go bad and that was in a Polytone combo amp many years ago. We were playing at low volume and it sounded fine and yet the next day I turned on the amp and the speaker was bad. I won't say "blown" simply because we were not playing loud at all.

I have always used my ears and have sometimes heard one of my speakers telling me I was pushing it too hard and throttled back immediately. It may not work for you but it works for me.

With my Subway equipment, using one of the 800 watt heads and one SW115 gets me loud enough for any gig I play. One band includes one fairly loud guitarist. That is the band that I use more of the available SPL with.

I frequently use my D-800+ with one Aguilar GS112 which is rated for 300 watts. I've not had a problem so far.

 

[Mark Sacchetti]

Here’s the smallest separates rig I use for low volume situations.
Shaw pre>baby sumo> MAS 16. Not a cheap rig. I would love a quality one piece combo solution.

 

[Hot Rats]

It just takes a little awareness. I've gigged this a couple of dozen times. Luckily my bands volume doesn't require me to blow my cabinet.

 

[Drop1]

I think you’re underestimating the crowd here again. If weren’t nerds we wouldn’t be here reading your thoughts.

Maybe. I'm definitely not trying to gate keep being a nerd. Especially on a forum. Just saying what I do requires a fair amount of rather specific, expensive gear that has no musical purpose. If we were in an rta or distortion, or amp dyno group, I'd be wording things very differently. If I have audio nerd brothers in here , awesome!!!! I just don't find many outside of very specific groups. Certainly not out in the real world.
I know there are some super nerds here. Far surpassing anything I could ever dream of. These guys are out there designing and building the things I only play with. I wouldn't consider them an "average" players though.
I imagine "most" want 2 things. For an amp to sound good to them and to get loud enough to cover their needs. The details "likely" don't matter much as long as those 2 desires are met.

 

[MarshallAC50Stack]

No doubt! I can't tell you how deep over my head the discussions get. Sure learn a lot around here.
I definitely fall into that average. I'm amazed at a guy like Agedhorse not only because of the engineering expertise but how he is able to describe the integration of this into the marketing aspects. The balance and judgement that requires is beyond me.

 

[MarshallAC50Stack]

Total aside, and many apologies: You can't grow a Zen garden without earthworms.

 

[Moonskunk]

During my younger days I was really into hifi stereo. One thing I was always told and read was that most speakers were blown by over driving low wattage receivers in the 15 to 35 watt range because the wave form was easily clipped and that you were much less likely to blow those same speakers with a high powered amp. At that time I had a pair of Large Advent Loudspeakers (actually still own and use them) a very popular acoustic suspension (Henry Kloss) speaker back in the early 70's that actually were designed to pair along with the Advent 300 receiver, a low powered 15 watts rms receiver which had an excellent preamp designed by Thomlinson Holman of THX fame. Although the pairing sounded really good the speakers would stress out at fairly modest volume. Years later I added a 200 watt rms Bryston amp and used only the preamp section of the Advent receiver and suddenly the speakers turned into beasts. You could actually see the woofer excursion had tightened up and wasn't waffling wildly back and forth as with the 15 watt receiver. The speakers would get really loud while still maintaining a really clean character. So, this question is probably for Agehorse. Why does this not also apply to bass cabinets and amps as we're discussing here?

 

[agedhorse]

During my younger days I was really into hifi stereo. One thing I was always told and read was that most speakers were blown by over driving low wattage receivers in the 15 to 35 watt range because the wave form was easily clipped and that you were much less likely to blow those same speakers with a high powered amp. At that time I had a pair of Large Advent Loudspeakers (actually still own and use them) a very popular acoustic suspension (Henry Kloss) speaker back in the early 70's that actually were designed to pair along with the Advent 300 receiver, a low powered 15 watts rms receiver which had an excellent preamp designed by Thomlinson Holman of THX fame. Although the pairing sounded really good the speakers would stress out at fairly modest volume. Years later I added a 200 watt rms Bryston amp and used only the preamp section of the Advent receiver and suddenly the speakers turned into beasts. You could actually see the woofer excursion had tightened up and wasn't waffling wildly back and forth as with the 15 watt receiver. The speakers would get really loud while still maintaining a really clean character. So, this question is probably for Agehorse. Why does this not also apply to bass cabinets and amps as we're discussing here?

Because the under powering and then driving the amp into clipping damages the tweeters, not the bass drivers.

Bass drivers are generally damaged from mechanical overpowering, different than HiFi.

 

[MarkA]

...Years later I added a 200 watt rms Bryston amp and used only the preamp section of the Advent receiver and suddenly the speakers turned into beasts. You could actually see the woofer excursion had tightened up and wasn't waffling wildly back and forth as with the 15 watt receiver...

Because the under powering and then driving the amp into clipping damages the tweeters, not the bass drivers.

Bass drivers are generally damaged from mechanical overpowering, different than HiFi.

I don't know the speakers or amps in question (or much about Hi-Fi) and, yeah, clipping the amp = more high frequency content, which can overpower tweeters, but if (and I wasn't there) the woofer was visibly flopping around more ("waffling wildly back and forth") with the lower powered amp, might there have been other differences between the amps (damping factor or subsonic filtering or some other factor with which I'm unfamiliar) that might have affected how well the amp controlled the woofer?

 

[Avalon5]

I sold hi-fi in the 80s. Those low powered receivers would generate enough high frequencies went over driven to blow tweeters. We kept extra tweeters in stock so we could repair them on site.

 

[agedhorse]

I don't know the speakers or amps in question (or much about Hi-Fi) and, yeah, clipping the amp = more high frequency content, which can overpower tweeters, but if (and I wasn't there) the woofer was visibly flopping around more ("waffling wildly back and forth") with the lower powered amp, might there have been other differences between the amps (damping factor or subsonic filtering or some other factor with which I'm unfamiliar) that might have affected how well the amp controlled the woofer?

Subsonic filtering.

I sold hi-fi in the 80s. Those low powered receivers would generate enough high frequencies went over driven to blow tweeters. We kept extra tweeters in stock so we could repair them on site.

All amps will do this.

 

[MarshallAC50Stack]

During my younger days I was really into hifi stereo. One thing I was always told and read was that most speakers were blown by over driving low wattage receivers in the 15 to 35 watt range because the wave form was easily clipped and that you were much less likely to blow those same speakers with a high powered amp. At that time I had a pair of Large Advent Loudspeakers (actually still own and use them) a very popular acoustic suspension (Henry Kloss) speaker back in the early 70's that actually were designed to pair along with the Advent 300 receiver, a low powered 15 watts rms receiver which had an excellent preamp designed by Thomlinson Holman of THX fame. Although the pairing sounded really good the speakers would stress out at fairly modest volume. Years later I added a 200 watt rms Bryston amp and used only the preamp section of the Advent receiver and suddenly the speakers turned into beasts. You could actually see the woofer excursion had tightened up and wasn't waffling wildly back and forth as with the 15 watt receiver. The speakers would get really loud while still maintaining a really clean character. So, this question is probably for Agehorse. Why does this not also apply to bass cabinets and amps as we're discussing here?

Rated for 60rms -100 peaks. Lots of folks blew them using too much power too! I still run a pair as my mains, sounding truly fine. Using a Hypex NC252MP @150pc. and a passive stepper. Not a loud listener.

 

[agedhorse]

Rated for 60rms -100 peaks. Lots of folks blew them using too much power too! I still run a pair as my mains, sounding truly fine. Using a Hypex NC252MP @150pc. and a passive stepper. Not a loud listener.

What's a passive stepper?

 

[MarshallAC50Stack]

What's a passive stepper?

Passive step attenuator. Chinese 21 step, looks like a pot. Cheap'n'cheerful in a little box.

 

[agedhorse]

Passive step attenuator. Chinese 21 step, looks like a pot. Cheap'n'cheerful in a little box.

Don’t understand how this applies.

 

[MarshallAC50Stack]

Don’t understand how this applies.

It's a volume control between source (Airport Express) and the power amp. It's in a modified Fostex PC1/e which acts both the volume control and a 3.5 aux to RCA splitter. I like an analog volume control rather than a digital slider.