Hey guys, I play in a 5 piece metal/hardcore band which has two guitarist who have a total disregard to bassists which is rather annoying so could anyone recommend any amp tones that would help me cut through (they both have boosted MIDs so I don't think that boosting my MIDs would help), I have a 2x10 Ashdown MAG 250 and I also just follow the guitar at the moment so any tips on writing bass lines that vary from the guitar and add more spice to the song. I'm also a pick player but I'm working on my finger playing
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Metal/Hardcore bassist problems
- Thread starter musicman96
- Start date
i've had good luck with my sb-2 strung with dr hi beams and some tube overdrive, i always play fingerstyle
When you say metal/hardcore, I'm going to assume you mean along the lines of this sound: . Whatever it is, chances are you should scoop your mids, and use a very low-end friendly amp/cab, also, have the tweeter on, you might be best getting a good 410 - I don't know how loud/low the ashdown 210 would get, but your guitarists are probably not the type to understand the words "turn down", so instead work on filling out the frequencies that they don't.
Switching to fingers may expand your horizons as a bassist, but it won't help you cut through. Dial in some very high-mids(2K or so), and use an aggressive tone with SS roundwounds.
The part about 2.5K vs 1K is good reading, and i find it true in my own tone.
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I know this isn't anything near what you play, but the guitars are heavy here(more in the alternative sense). You can hear how the bass still grinds its' way through the mix while adding to the guitar's heaviness:
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The part about 2.5K vs 1K is good reading, and i find it true in my own tone.
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I know this isn't anything near what you play, but the guitars are heavy here(more in the alternative sense). You can hear how the bass still grinds its' way through the mix while adding to the guitar's heaviness:
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A 210 isn't likely to cut it in a band with two loud guitars. You need a 410 or a fEARish cab at least.
I play in a metal/hardcore band and my gear is: Fender American STD Jazz, Ampeg SVT3 Pro, 2 old school Hartke 4x10 cabs and a Sansamp Bass Driver DI pedal. And here is what it sounds like...
I say definitely check out the Sansamp pedal and mess with some of the presets in the manual.
I say definitely check out the Sansamp pedal and mess with some of the presets in the manual.
I used to be in a metal band so I might be able of offer a piece of advice or two.
For one thing, forget about what your guitarists' EQs are set to. You play in a different frequency range and probably have a completely different set of frequencies dialed into your amp than they will. Just focus on your sound. And in this case, I would recommend boosting mids. In my experience you sometimes have to play around with the mids quite a bit to get the exact sound you want because it will sound weird at first. But once you get them dialed in, I've noticed they can punch through like a laser beam.
Another thing is to watch how much bass you dial in. I was always a fan of booming, low bass tones in songs but it's easy to dial too much low end into the sound and muddy everything up. Metal requires a certain tightness to the bass in my opinion so dialing it back a bit might take a little boom out but add a lot of clarity which may help. You may even notice that you can dial more bass back into the sound as you adjust the mids more. I generally save the treble adjustment for last as it's mainly an accent on the attack, but if you are playing up high a lot, you will need to spend more time there.
I highly recommend a 4x10 cabinet (or two). Your guitartists will endlessly whine about how loud it is even before you plug it in the first time, but you can remind them of the volume knob on your amp. They are correct, though. 4x10 cabinets are loud and produce a very tight sound without compromising low frequency fidelity. I owned a Hartke 4x10 cabinet when I was in my metal band but gave it up to my replacement. Right now I'm running through an Ampeg 4x10 and am quite satisfied.
As for note selection, I'm not a guru in music theory so I'm not sure I can help you there. Metal does have the bassist following the guitarists a lot, but I tried to mix things up when I could. If you have a 5-string, one thing you can do is translate some parts down onto the lower notes you now have access to. If you are already down low, then adding octave accents is a trick although very common. You can also experiment with duplicating chord shapes at various places that match what the guitarists are doing. Sometimes inverting the notes in the shape makes interesting sounds. Don't be afraid to experiment while practicing and remember to pay close attention to the drummer.
Lastly, don't worry about using a pick versus your fingers. My honest recommendation is learn how to do both proficiently because it will make you a better overall player, but if you don't want to dedicate yourself to that, then just use what's comfortable to you. I am fans of bands in the metal genre that have both pick and finger players so I've never understood why anyone cared, really.
For one thing, forget about what your guitarists' EQs are set to. You play in a different frequency range and probably have a completely different set of frequencies dialed into your amp than they will. Just focus on your sound. And in this case, I would recommend boosting mids. In my experience you sometimes have to play around with the mids quite a bit to get the exact sound you want because it will sound weird at first. But once you get them dialed in, I've noticed they can punch through like a laser beam.
Another thing is to watch how much bass you dial in. I was always a fan of booming, low bass tones in songs but it's easy to dial too much low end into the sound and muddy everything up. Metal requires a certain tightness to the bass in my opinion so dialing it back a bit might take a little boom out but add a lot of clarity which may help. You may even notice that you can dial more bass back into the sound as you adjust the mids more. I generally save the treble adjustment for last as it's mainly an accent on the attack, but if you are playing up high a lot, you will need to spend more time there.
I highly recommend a 4x10 cabinet (or two). Your guitartists will endlessly whine about how loud it is even before you plug it in the first time, but you can remind them of the volume knob on your amp. They are correct, though. 4x10 cabinets are loud and produce a very tight sound without compromising low frequency fidelity. I owned a Hartke 4x10 cabinet when I was in my metal band but gave it up to my replacement. Right now I'm running through an Ampeg 4x10 and am quite satisfied.
As for note selection, I'm not a guru in music theory so I'm not sure I can help you there. Metal does have the bassist following the guitarists a lot, but I tried to mix things up when I could. If you have a 5-string, one thing you can do is translate some parts down onto the lower notes you now have access to. If you are already down low, then adding octave accents is a trick although very common. You can also experiment with duplicating chord shapes at various places that match what the guitarists are doing. Sometimes inverting the notes in the shape makes interesting sounds. Don't be afraid to experiment while practicing and remember to pay close attention to the drummer.
Lastly, don't worry about using a pick versus your fingers. My honest recommendation is learn how to do both proficiently because it will make you a better overall player, but if you don't want to dedicate yourself to that, then just use what's comfortable to you. I am fans of bands in the metal genre that have both pick and finger players so I've never understood why anyone cared, really.
At the end of the day there's no point in giving you any advice re: gear/technique because that's only going to start an arms race which will end with your band sounding like a wall of mud which will probably only end in someone getting fired or deafened. Have a conversation and talk about what works and what doesn't. Talk about what bands you like to listen to and how that info could be used to inform your overall tone. If you get to a place where you're happy that you're on the same page but your gear doesn't allow you to get there (and that puny Ashdown probably wont) then it's time to go amp shopping, but if you've already figured out what you need you'll be shopping smart.
If your band do not want to accommodate you tonally they are not a good band and you're better off working with other people.
If your band do not want to accommodate you tonally they are not a good band and you're better off working with other people.
I agree with having a band conversation about where everyone needs to be in order to hear each other.
I play in heavy bands, and I've found that the low mids are really what give the bass presence in the mix. Just have to make sure the guitar's bass knob is in a respectable position.
I play in heavy bands, and I've found that the low mids are really what give the bass presence in the mix. Just have to make sure the guitar's bass knob is in a respectable position.
I used to be in an endless "volume war" with the guitarist(s) in my metal bands. My opponents were a Marshall (rhythm) and Mesa (lead) stack and each loved to throw a lot of bass in their tone, and felt that their amps just didn't work properly and "get their tone" unless they were on at least 9.
I can't overemphasize the quality advice in this thread to ADD MID's to your tone. I loved the "scooped" sound when I would play solo or practice, but the reality was scooping got me comments at shows like "dude, were you even playing?" or "those guitars are so loud and bass-y it's like you aren't even there". It was disheartening to say the least.
When I finally changed my tone and added more mid-range, two things happened.
1. My drummer thanked me.
2. BOTH guitarists said "um, huh, that tone sounds weird. It's kinda loud, maybe you should go back to your old sound."
Essentially, the bass had arrived and they realized they were not locking into the rhythm as well as they thought they were. People also started commenting that they could finally hear me live. So yeah, you'll probably need a 4x10 to compete, but don't go spending a fortune on a huge rig without adjusting your tone properly. Otherwise like others have said you're just gonna start an arms race that leads to your band sounding like mud.
I can't overemphasize the quality advice in this thread to ADD MID's to your tone. I loved the "scooped" sound when I would play solo or practice, but the reality was scooping got me comments at shows like "dude, were you even playing?" or "those guitars are so loud and bass-y it's like you aren't even there". It was disheartening to say the least.
When I finally changed my tone and added more mid-range, two things happened.
1. My drummer thanked me.
2. BOTH guitarists said "um, huh, that tone sounds weird. It's kinda loud, maybe you should go back to your old sound."
Essentially, the bass had arrived and they realized they were not locking into the rhythm as well as they thought they were. People also started commenting that they could finally hear me live. So yeah, you'll probably need a 4x10 to compete, but don't go spending a fortune on a huge rig without adjusting your tone properly. Otherwise like others have said you're just gonna start an arms race that leads to your band sounding like mud.
Each member has to find a tone where collectively together, you all mesh. It's not about the bass or each of the 2 guitars having a sick sound when played alone, it's when played all together that counts. Especially with heavy music.
Trial and era. But everyone has to be on the same page to try.
Trial and era. But everyone has to be on the same page to try.
buldog5151bass
Kibble, milkbones, and P Basses. And redheads.
Doesn't matter what genre you play - getting too loud is never good. It's not about anyone's egos, it's about what sounds good. If you think it is too loud, then you need to talk it out. If the guitarists are unwilling to be reasonable, then you need to get out before your hearing is shot. Dynamics will do more than a wall of mud.
Love me some SB2. Really miss the one I had to let go 12 years ago. Would love to have it back.
Like it even more than my Am J
Don't think I can agree. Played with a band with 3 guitars. First lead played through 2 Fender Deluxes. Another through a Fender Twin, and the third seemed to bring something different every time. Drummer playing an electronic set through the PA.
Me - Fender American J to a Tech 21 SansAmp to an Ampeg B1RE to an SWR Workingman 2x10 with tweeter sitting on top of a Hartke XL 1x15. I don't have any problem with enough volume and I was never more than about 6 - 7 on master volume.
Hence the qualifier "likely"
Also, I don't know many metal/hardcore guitarists playing through fender twins. Most have either a 5150 into a 412, a JCM or Triple Rectifier.
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Best advice I can give is to get an outside opinion from someone whose ears you trust: producer, engineer, musician from another band, etc.
Also a good idea to record your practices and listen back with the other band members. A good time to do this is to listen to last week's rehearsal before you start this week's (because your ears will be shot after practice).
One final word of advice: if your bass lines typically play "follow the guitar" then please don't feel like you need to "cut through." It is perfectly OK in many musical styles for the bass to double the guitar part at a lower volume to fill out the bottom end. Believe me that, even if you aren't perceiving your bass line as an independent part, people in the audience will be able to feel the difference and enjoy your contribution.
Also a good idea to record your practices and listen back with the other band members. A good time to do this is to listen to last week's rehearsal before you start this week's (because your ears will be shot after practice).
One final word of advice: if your bass lines typically play "follow the guitar" then please don't feel like you need to "cut through." It is perfectly OK in many musical styles for the bass to double the guitar part at a lower volume to fill out the bottom end. Believe me that, even if you aren't perceiving your bass line as an independent part, people in the audience will be able to feel the difference and enjoy your contribution.
To echo what Mushroo said, once I had established a tone that cut through (maybe "complimented" is a less adversarial term?) so I was present with the guitars, I was still locked in with the rhythm quite often, and tossed in the odd octave or 5th to add some color to the basslines.
Sometimes the bass can cut through while staying with the guitar.
I find that slightly overdriven grind I like adds another dimension to the guitars. Many non-musicians will think of it as the guitar, but most bassists will instantly recognize it as "awesome" bass tone.
In a recording, compression will meld those two sounds together as one.
See: Meshuggah/Tool/Jim Martin era FNM
I find that slightly overdriven grind I like adds another dimension to the guitars. Many non-musicians will think of it as the guitar, but most bassists will instantly recognize it as "awesome" bass tone.
In a recording, compression will meld those two sounds together as one.
See: Meshuggah/Tool/Jim Martin era FNM
