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Metronomes and Time/Rhythm Awareness

#141
Whousedtoplay said:
Lownote38,
You know I really enjoy talking to you. You are a very nice person to socialize.
I don't want to start my regular and long story about my personal vision of the metronomes and how IMPORTANT they are to any musician playing swing/groove - based music, because
I've said it way too many times, and I've upset way too many nice TB members, and I've deleted way too many of my comments related to the use of the metronome.
In my world, the metronome is a must in order to perfect a sense of swing, groove, work on phrases, nuances, etc...
I also, don't want to start my regular discussion about the seriously educated Classical musicians who can read music superbly but have "some issues" playing with the metronome.

N.B. From your comments, I thought you learn how to read music AFTER you played a lot. ;)
But I'm not going to post your older comments.

I understand that you use (a lot) a click (but you "do not inhale") =
"I use a screwdriver a lot but I don't practice how to use that screwdriver."

Anyway, behind the computer, we are invincible - I wish I could have met you in some studio, a rehearsal room, etc..., it would have been easier for me to explain my idea about the use of the metronomes.

P.S. Jeff Berlin's vision of the metronome has been checked and re-checked by me and REJECTED; therefore, please don't use his "wordings".
Click to expand...

Trust me. I'm not a blind follower of Mr. Berlin. I also don't have any problem with people wanting to use a metronome. I don't have a personal problem with metronomes period . I just never used one, or felt the need to for myself.
Groove is a word I love talking about, because it can pertain to so many different things musically. I won't go into that here. That would be something I'd love to talk to you about face to face like you said.

You are correct that I was self taught and didn't have a teacher for bass when I started. From the ages of 13 - 20 years old, I taught myself to play. Having said that, I was classically trained on saxophone (which is weird... I know) from the age of 10 - 18, so I could already read. I also took some basic music theory classes in high school. So, I wasn't totally green going into college for music. I just never had a private instructor for electric bass until I attended college.
I am open to hearing your ideas about metronomes and their uses. I agree it would be a lot more cool to meet you in person to do so.

Like you, I've deleted many comments on here as well after upsetting others on this forum.

Just know that I respect you and your viewpoints. I enjoy talking to you as well, and never consider anything to be an argument, but rather a well informed discussion. Even if we don't agree, it doesn't affect that respect.
 
#142
Whousedtoplay said:
Cool! :thumbsup:



"A million ways to play a quarter note" - Avishai Cohen.

From "Bass Player".
There is a long article about Carlitos De Puerto.
Read here:
Carlitos Del Puerto: Rhythm and Dues

View attachment 2958786 View attachment 2958792
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These types of drills are really very useful to develop a feel for rhythmic interplay, but I think you are overstating the importance of the metronome. Everything here can be done without, IME. Note this is not the same as saying they should be done without... Perhaps they might be better learned without then practiced/developed with?
 
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#143
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#144
SteveCS said:
These types of drills are really very useful to develop a feel for rhythmic interplay, but I think you are overstating the importance of the metronome. Everything here can be done without, IME. Note this is not the same as saying they should be done without... Perhaps they might be better learned without then practiced/developed with?
Click to expand...
+1 for this approach.
 
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#145
Lownote38 said:
I also don't have any problem with people wanting to use a metronome. I don't have a personal problem with metronomes period .
Click to expand...
Lownote38 said:
If you need a metronome in order to learn to keep steady time, maybe you should become a lead guitarist.
Click to expand...
OK, good luck with that.
Have a blessed day.
 
#146
What I was responding to in Steve CS's suggestion is that it is how I learn particularly difficult rhythms. I use my foot for tapping out the time signature and clap the rhythm until I understand it and can hear what it is supposed to sound like and then once I feel the rhythm, I turn on the metronome and dial it in. Just seems easier to internalize complex rhythms this way. But I always transition to the metronome once I have figured things out.
 
#147
Whousedtoplay said:
Yes, why not.
Steve you have heard my opinion about the importance of the metronome numerous times, no need to repeat it.

Here is my question to you and/or to anybody else.
If we take the a very simple X and Y (Y and X) axis and name Y as "pitch" and X as Beat/measure/etc...
and draw a note that has a pitch, the start of the note/the end of the note, then,
we will notice a note (just one note) must comply with Y and X requirements - we need a "pitch"/frequency and note's length.
It clearly shows the IMPORTANCE of those two axes.

Now, what if we have a patter/line (a bass-line) with several notes, tempo, beat/rhythm, etc...

Please explain to me why the Y (pitch) ear training (especially for fretted bass guitar players) is very important but the X-axis - when the note starts/when it ends - is NOT?

P.S. I don't need to start that even the best tailors are carefully measuring their clients' in order to make custom-made suit.

View attachment 2958900
Click to expand...

Time is vitally important to music. You know it is and you know I know it is and you know I've never said it wasn't, so come on with the trick questions. :)

And I'm not quite sure what your graphic is telling me that standard notation cannot. In fact its probably telling a lot less - perhaps it could be improved by a Z-axis for dynamics? Or a trend line to show volume. Then a different colour trace for each instrument in the arrangement. Then what happens if piano (red) and bass (blue) play in unison - does it go purple? Not sure I could follow that at 5bpm let alone 85 or 155.

Sorry, I still don't understand your question...
 
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#149
Ed Fuqua said:
OK, good luck with that.
Have a blessed day.
Click to expand...

You too. I sent you a private message yesterday, which I hope you were able to read.
The second post of mine you quoted is a joke as I've stated. The first is true. I don't personally feel like a metronome is necessary, but I don't have a problem with the device itself, or people using it. I don't use one, and never felt that one would help me. That's just my experience.
 
#150
Lownote38 said:
You too. I sent you a private message yesterday, which I hope you were able to read.
The second post of mine you quoted is a joke as I've stated. The first is true. I don't personally feel like a metronome is necessary, but I don't have a problem with the device itself, or people using it. I don't use one, and never felt that one would help me. That's just my experience.
Click to expand...
It's kind of a mean spirited joke. Your experience is yours, mine is mine.
 
#151
Whousedtoplay said:
I'm sorry for poorly-crafted "sketch" with a very simple message.
Any (simplified) note must have at least two dimensions - frequency/"pitch" and length like Vertical and Horizontal dimensions of music.
Two notes - including rest/s - from a melodic interval must have a starting and ending point, and so on.
I could not find immediately, something like a plotter to demonstrate a bass pattern (moving in time)/ line as a (minimum!) two-dimensional graphic.
I've just wanted to emphasize the importance of both of those dimensions for a bass player playing rhythm-based music.


P.S. I doubt that even a 3-D dimensional graphic could fully represent a bass (or any other instrument) line.
Click to expand...

I'm just struggling a little with what your graph might tell me that this cannot. One of the best known bass lines of all times - see if you can work out what it might be without picking up your bass or putting it in a DAW...
Line 1.JPG
 
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#152
Ed Fuqua said:
It's kind of a mean spirited joke. Your experience is yours, mine is mine.
Click to expand...

It wasn't meant to be mean spirited, or even directed at you. The person I quoted and responded to with that joke is someone I get along with just fine (and we also disagree on the metronome thing, but it doesn't stop us from respecting one another). You're also right that your experience is yours and mine is mine. I wrote you a message, and explained my respect for you and what you've accomplished. Not acknowledging that you even got that message is a little mean in my opinion. I put out the olive branch. You haven't responded. Someone seems a little grumpy, and it isn't me.
 
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#156
inanimate_carb said:
I wouldn't have posted that. A 12 page, one-person over-analysis and argument over every other 8th note in that example could break out! :D
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It may well do, but as it's an extract from my score as scored by me for me to play as I play it, give or take, it wouldn't change anything. I suppose I could write on a precise bpm instead of moderato or the precise dB of mezzo-piano. But what to do on those pesky accents and downbeats? Or when I play it in a noisy pub? And what to do if I play it a little slower tomorrow? On the other hand I might just pick up my bass and play the song... :)
 
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#157
Whousedtoplay said:
Dear Steve,

Do you seriously think that my "failed" attempt to show that "plotter" is a some kind of new TAB system?
Do you see the difference between the music sheet - dead notes, and the difference playing those notes by the beginner, amateur, or a PRO musician?
Have you ever read my term, "adjustable flexibility" while playing live the internalized phrase, line with other musicians?
Steve, you are way too educated and too experienced musician/bass player to start lame conversation; therefore,
Steve, you are always correct!

P.S. Steve, one of my biggest pet peeves as a musician playing live is to see/to feel that someone in my band does not give a .... about their performance because we play "in a noisy pub".
Click to expand...

I'm trying to understand what your plot is trying to show and why. If you are trying to position note-off MIDI messages to emulate the feel of real performances in a sequencer then, OK I can see why you might want to better see where notes end and how standard notation may not be adequate. I just wonder if if such a scientific method will not get you running around in circles because you are linking it all to such a rigid timebase, ie the metronome. IME, feel happens in the moment on a highly visceral level and is a result of the interactions of many human factors that defy analysis. Even something as nebulous as how much sleep the performer had last night may impact the performance.
That said, as you may know I am doing a lot of drum and strings programming for my band (we are just three) at the moment. Trying to create a more organic feel in this way is the devil's own job, so my question is genuine and I do have a genuine interest in this aspect of time...
 
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#158
Whousedtoplay said:
Steve,
My failed attempt with that "graphic/plotter" is NOTHING more than just some "tool" to show the importance of the vertical dimension in music or in bass line particular.
It has NOTHING(!) to do with Standard Notation or TAB. It also, has nothing to do with MIDI.
If we take ANY bass player - a PRO or a beginner - playing the simplest bass pattern and record it with some "tool" that could show the note's pitch and its start, and end within some given Beat/Measure.
My point is this.
Any note from even a simple bass pattern can be placed in numerous Beat locations.
Any note could have differently articulated length during LIVE performance.
And it has NOTHING to do whether you are playing from some sheet music or from your memory.
I could have used the following graph but it does not indicate the Y-axis - the pitch.
Also, the two-dimensional interpretation of music/bass pattern is the Simplest, extremely-simplified version to show those two aspects of Music - horizontal and vertical.
That two-dimensional graph has no ability (or need) to show ANY dynamic/organic/etc... nuances of Music, or a bass pattern.


View attachment 2959882

We could call it Metric Oscillation but it would have NOTHING to do with the Standard Notation or its SUBSTITUTION.

View attachment 2959887
Maybe, the following chart would have been a better example in my case?

View attachment 2959897

Or this.
View attachment 2959901

But all those examples have NOTHING to do with Standard Notation.

I've tried to simplify something like the following.
View attachment 2959907

Maybe, I should have posted this?
View attachment 2959911

Or this?

View attachment 2959914

Or this?

View attachment 2959915
Click to expand...

Sorry you've lost me now...
 
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