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Double Bass Mic or pickup into PA for FOH?
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Earl
Supporting Member
Earl
Supporting Member
Depends, but in a straight ahead jazz situation I prefer my ATM35 straight to FOH with monitor, or through my PJ Double Four and then to FOH. Or hopefully nothing at all!
Depends on the situation. I like mic to FOH, pickup to bass amp if possible. Otherwise, there are some situations where my only option is to use the pickup for both.
At one point I tried using a mic for everything but kept having feedback issues, especially when playing with big bands. One big band leader kept getting irritated and didn't call me for gigs for quite a while after that. When he did finally call me back, over a year later, the first thing he asked me before asking if I could even play the gig was whether or not I had a pickup on my bass.
I know a lot of players are dead set against them but I've come to accept pickups as a necessary evil. For smaller combo gigs I keep the amp turned down as much as possible. Preferably no more than the acoustic volume of the bass itself. That way the amp is adding presence more than anything.
At one point I tried using a mic for everything but kept having feedback issues, especially when playing with big bands. One big band leader kept getting irritated and didn't call me for gigs for quite a while after that. When he did finally call me back, over a year later, the first thing he asked me before asking if I could even play the gig was whether or not I had a pickup on my bass.
I know a lot of players are dead set against them but I've come to accept pickups as a necessary evil. For smaller combo gigs I keep the amp turned down as much as possible. Preferably no more than the acoustic volume of the bass itself. That way the amp is adding presence more than anything.
One of my peers bought the AMT bass mic and Solstice Preamp/blender. The AMT sounded fabulous when he played solo, but it was practically useless with an amp because the gain before feed back was very low, so he could not get sufficient stage volume.
The mic was also pretty much useless in a big band because of bleed from other instruments. The worst problem was the mic picked up way more cymbal and high hat from the drum set than bass.
I don't believe this was a matter of poor rear rejection. Rather, I believe the sound was hitting the face of the bass and reflecting back into the mic at a couple of difference phase angles due to the curves on the instrument. The reason I say this is because the cymbal sound was phasey. He tried turning down the treble but that took away from the sweetness of the bass sound. The mic was also picking up drums which was noticeable but not a total show stopper. For a short time, he wound up running primarily a contact pickup with just a touch of the AMT with the treble rolled off. I thought the pickup soloed sounded better at volume in the ensemble.
He kept experimenting with different pickups, and a few years later wound up with the Ehrlund EAP system. The EAP is the most mic-like pickup I have ever heard. In order to get good results you need a good sounding bass and you have to experiment to find the optimum placement. I was surprised by the quality of the signal with the EAP. Great tone, good rejection, and good gain before feedback.
The only place I would recommend using a mic with a big band would be in a recording session where the bassist was in an isolation booth on cans. I could also see using mics on acoustic basses for outdoor symphony concerts, where no personal amps are used.
I have experimented with mics run into a bass amp and never gotten enough volume to feel it's worthwhile. If I am going to use and amp, I won't to be able to turn it up enough to really make a difference. I don't go with the philosophy that my sound is 80% acoustic and 20% amp, like a lot of the great players seemed to have done. When I use an amp, the amp generally dominates.
The mic was also pretty much useless in a big band because of bleed from other instruments. The worst problem was the mic picked up way more cymbal and high hat from the drum set than bass.
I don't believe this was a matter of poor rear rejection. Rather, I believe the sound was hitting the face of the bass and reflecting back into the mic at a couple of difference phase angles due to the curves on the instrument. The reason I say this is because the cymbal sound was phasey. He tried turning down the treble but that took away from the sweetness of the bass sound. The mic was also picking up drums which was noticeable but not a total show stopper. For a short time, he wound up running primarily a contact pickup with just a touch of the AMT with the treble rolled off. I thought the pickup soloed sounded better at volume in the ensemble.
He kept experimenting with different pickups, and a few years later wound up with the Ehrlund EAP system. The EAP is the most mic-like pickup I have ever heard. In order to get good results you need a good sounding bass and you have to experiment to find the optimum placement. I was surprised by the quality of the signal with the EAP. Great tone, good rejection, and good gain before feedback.
The only place I would recommend using a mic with a big band would be in a recording session where the bassist was in an isolation booth on cans. I could also see using mics on acoustic basses for outdoor symphony concerts, where no personal amps are used.
I have experimented with mics run into a bass amp and never gotten enough volume to feel it's worthwhile. If I am going to use and amp, I won't to be able to turn it up enough to really make a difference. I don't go with the philosophy that my sound is 80% acoustic and 20% amp, like a lot of the great players seemed to have done. When I use an amp, the amp generally dominates.
The mic and pickup were also sent to the PA, which is consistent with the various options in your poll. I selected pickup only in the poll and explained why. I rarely played in situations where my amp pushed the room. I usually had full PA support.
In a big band, using a mic is very challenging on upright bass, or even piano for that matter; even if the mic is only sent to the PA. The reason is because mics tend to pic up way too much bleed from surrounding instruments, most notably drums. In my experience if you have to EQ out the cymbals from the mic'ed signal, it's also going to degrade the sound of the bass, so you might as well just use a good contact pickup and learn how to EQ it so it sounds a bit more natural.
There is also quite a bit of bleed with contact pickups. There have been times when I soloed up the bass in my headphones to listen to the bandleader brief everyone before the show. You would probably be surprised how clear sound can be. Since the pickup is in direct contact with the bass, the sound of the instrument is usually drastically louder than the bleed from other instruments, so it is a lot easier to use than a mic and IMHO is the best compromise for live performance
No doubt a mic can provide the best possible sound in the right environment, but a live stage with a big band drummer, monitors, and a loud bass amp is far from ideal conditions.
I voted mic only because I did it for a few years. These days I use whatever makes the most sense for the ensemble and the venue (my choice.)
*edit- The ability to use a mic not only requires major buy-in from everyone but most especially your band mates, they have to understand and be willing to make it successful.
*edit- The ability to use a mic not only requires major buy-in from everyone but most especially your band mates, they have to understand and be willing to make it successful.
Last edited:
- Dec 13, 1999
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- Chuck Sher publishes my book, WALKING BASSICS:The Fundamentals of Jazz Bass Playing.
Depends on the venue, the musicians, and the crowd. When I lived in NYC there were clubs I could play purely acoustically, those that I could play with only a mic on the bass (and generally little to no bass in the monitor), and a few (mostly jazz casuals or outdoor gigs with no PA support) that I used an amp and pickup on. The rooms where the first option happened were both amenable to acoustic music and had crowds that came to listen to the music. The second option was for larger rooms with good house systems and sound persons who actually knew what they were doing when mixing an acoustic jazz group.
Since I've returned to a smaller metropolitan area, the venues that book jazz are in larger rooms that A. Aren't acoustically friendly B. don't have a good house system or skilled sound engineers C. have crowds that support jazz but don't really listen to it. So there's generally a lot of chatter and white noise coming from the crowd. There were two venues that filled the bill for the first option, and a couple more that fit the second that I hadn't had the opportunity to perform in before Our Current Reality, I'm hopeful that I'll get a chance in the near future.
So, not sure if your poll allows multiple responses...
Since I've returned to a smaller metropolitan area, the venues that book jazz are in larger rooms that A. Aren't acoustically friendly B. don't have a good house system or skilled sound engineers C. have crowds that support jazz but don't really listen to it. So there's generally a lot of chatter and white noise coming from the crowd. There were two venues that filled the bill for the first option, and a couple more that fit the second that I hadn't had the opportunity to perform in before Our Current Reality, I'm hopeful that I'll get a chance in the near future.
So, not sure if your poll allows multiple responses...
I couldn't vote, only a single vote is allowed. I do it all, depending on the situation.
I have piezos installed on bridge wing and under fingerboard, feeding into a dual channel pre-amp for blending into a dual mono output that can support both an amp and an FOH feed at the same time. And, I have a mounted mic that I can clean-feed either to an amp or to an FOH. Typically I'll select either 1 or 2 of these three outputs for various reasons...
For situations where most everyone I'm playing with is amp'ed, and/or I'm competing with drums, and the situation is loud, I use my piezo system to my amp, or to both my amp and an FOH, or just to the FOH.
For less loud situations where I'd like nicer tone for the audience but still need help hearing my intonation, I'll feed my piezo system to my amp to serve as a personal monitor, and at the same time feed my mic to an FOH.
For more sensitive-volume situations I prefer tone of the mic, and will select to feed it to my amp, or through my amp to an FOH, or directly to an FOH, depending on the complexity of the venue.
I use wireless for all connections going out from my double bass, so there is no issue with multiple cables to deal with.
I have piezos installed on bridge wing and under fingerboard, feeding into a dual channel pre-amp for blending into a dual mono output that can support both an amp and an FOH feed at the same time. And, I have a mounted mic that I can clean-feed either to an amp or to an FOH. Typically I'll select either 1 or 2 of these three outputs for various reasons...
For situations where most everyone I'm playing with is amp'ed, and/or I'm competing with drums, and the situation is loud, I use my piezo system to my amp, or to both my amp and an FOH, or just to the FOH.
For less loud situations where I'd like nicer tone for the audience but still need help hearing my intonation, I'll feed my piezo system to my amp to serve as a personal monitor, and at the same time feed my mic to an FOH.
For more sensitive-volume situations I prefer tone of the mic, and will select to feed it to my amp, or through my amp to an FOH, or directly to an FOH, depending on the complexity of the venue.
I use wireless for all connections going out from my double bass, so there is no issue with multiple cables to deal with.
My usual stage setup is Ehrlund EAP to the amp. I send a wet signal from the amp's DI to FOH and use the amp volume behind me as my main stage monitor. I try not to put any of my signal into stage wedges but will use the occasional side fill monitor if absolutely needed. I rarely have serious feedback issues.
I appreciate that and I'm sure for most it depends on the gig and stage. If I open the poll to multiple votes I think most would vote for all. In an attempt to keep it focused I guess we should think of the poll as "what would you do in an ideal situation for getting the best sound".
Up to now I've just let the sound man have his way with me which 80% of the time is a DI from the pickup, no mic. I rarely work with sound men experienced with acoustic music. I have a gig coming up on an outdoor stage with a sound crew and thinking I should try to make sure a mic is used for the PA. I'll use my pickup into an amp for stage volume - I'm not into putting a mic to the bass amp. Acoustic jazz quintet with drums, not too loud but everyone will be mic'd/DI'd.
I've done that many times as well, IME the Ehrlund EAP needs a decent preamp like the Headway EDB-2, a Grace Designs Felix, or a head with a good preamp section and possibly (although I never use one) the Ehrlund Preamp.
The success of this is highly dependent on how loud the PA will be, how big the stage is, how the PA is setup, how much pattern control the speakers have, how loud the other musicians are, how the band is setup, and the skill of the audio tech. It's fairly common with Dixie groups for everyone to stand around a single mic, and the soloist to step forward toward the mix. In the right setting this works fine. In the wrong setting it's a disaster.
If channels are available, I recommend sending both the mic and the pickup, and expressing a preference for the mic. Then the pickup is there if the mic is not usable, or needs a little help through blending.
A genuinely useful thread, thank you @basss I learned a lot from it. And I had a good chuckle visualizing you letting the sound guy have his way with you 
Ric is dead-on about the preamp. I use the Ehrlund preamp and it works very well. The Phase switch on it has been particularly useful in feedback prevention on many occasions. However, I actually got to play a gig last week and as luck would have it the battery in the Ehrlund crapped out. I was playing through an older Acoustic Image Clarus 2R so I bypassed the Ehrlund preamp and plugged straight in and had no real issues. Just had to crank up the input gain. It all comes down to the amps input impedance I suppose. The Felix is killer.
